Liars @ MindSay 
bush
Where did I leave off last time? Right, I was trying to get (re)laid by a co-worker. I tried once more after that without success, so I backed off. For whatever reason, it's not happening and that's cool. I like this guy so I'd like to remain friends with him. I'm working on getting him out for a drink so we can catch up and relax and just hang out. If something happens, so be it, but that's not my angle for going out with him. He's a genuinely nice guy and I'd like to keep him in my life however I can.
However, there's still drama.
I'll admit it. I'm a flirt, and even though I'm way too old for a phrase like this, I'm a bit boy-crazy. I like to like people. I loved being in love, and know I will always love my ex. Without a doubt, he is the best thing that ever happened to me and I will never completely recover from losing him. However, I admit I am lonely and feeling attraction for other people helps me through the times when I miss him the most.
Enter co-worker number two, also a nice guy. We've been pretty friendly for several months now, and I've felt things progressing. We talked about it, and acknowledged the attraction and flirting. (I've discovered that since my last relationship, I prefer putting my cards on the table and knowing where things stand. That way, if I'm wrong and it's not mutual, I can accept it and move on before it becomes embarrassing.)
About two weeks ago, we were talking a bit at the office and I mentioned something about working a little late that night. To my surprise, he called me later in the evening while I was still at work. We talked and joked for a bit, and he asked if I was doing anything later. I wasn't, so we agreed to get together. I asked if he wanted me to come out to where he is (we both live in different suburbs of the city we work in) and he said he was already out so he'd come my way. We said goodbye, I ran home and changed and we got together for a drink.
A couple hours later, I brought him home. (Let me say I honestly don't like blogging it like that. I know I run the risk of protesting too much, but I am conscious that how cavalierly I seem to bring people home makes me look like a slut, and I'm honestly not. I can name every person I've slept with, and it's really not that many. But back to the story.)
So I brought him home. We kissed, we fooled around, there was sex. Hot, sweaty, great sex. And he even stayed around afterwards to talk a bit.
We talked about small stuff, and then of course we talked about a little heavier stuff. He asked a few personal questions like why was he there with me at that moment. I answered his questions best I could, and then asked what his story was. He was evasive, which immediately gave me a sick feeling.
He insisted I knew what his story was. I told him I didn't, and he told me I knew but was blocking it out. After playing this shit for a few minutes, I told him that I didn't want a fucking riddle, I wanted a straightforward answer. Finally, he reminded me. Seems I met his wife three months ago.
Yup, wife. He's married. M.A.R.R.I.E.D.
I told the asshole to get the fuck out of my house, and then stripped my bed and took a shower. I know I'm not to blame, because I truly didn't know. I work in a very public-oriented job and I meet a LOT of people. His wife is one of literally thousands of people I've met in the year I've worked for this company, and it was for all of 15 seconds. I really didn't remember, because if I'd known he was married I wouldn't have even flirted with him. I've been cheated on and I absolutely refuse to have any part in making a woman worry about what her man is doing. It's a line I just won't cross. Still, it made me feel disgustingly dirty to know what I'd done, even if I didn't know I was doing it at the time.
So here's what I'd say to the asshole if the sight of him didn't make me nauseous:
You wants to cheat on your wife? Fine, that's your business. I think it's slimy and disgusting, but that's your right to be slimy and disgusting. If that's how you want to live your life, that's up to you, but don't you dare make me part of this, and don't you fucking dare try to tell me that I knew. Don't you try and tell me "it just happened". It's been building up to this for awhile and you know it. Both before and after sex, you told me you'd like to do this again. You were intending to start an affair. While I didn't come right out earlier in the evening and directly ask if you were single, I asked where your son was. I asked why you had multiple cars. I asked about coming out to your place. If you truly believed I knew you were married, you would have said your kid was with your wife. You would have mentioned one of the cars belonging to your wife. You would have told me I couldn't come to your place because YOUR WIFE WAS HOME SLEEPING! You gave me evasive answers because you realized I didn't remember her and you took advantage of that.
Don't you dare come to me at work and ask if we're still friends. You can't truly be that stupid, can you? Calling you disgusting and yelling at you to get the fuck out of my house didn't give you a clue?
Oh, and it was a real classy move to bring your wife and baby daughter by work yesterday. You're lucky I didn't walk up to her and tell her what a sleazy shitbag you are. After all, I can describe exactly how you fuck. I know your "move". You have one hell of a set of balls waving this all in front of my face and trying to place the blame on me because "I knew about it". You're a real fucking piece of work, you know that?
That's ok. Whether it be God, Karma, or something else, this will come back to get you one day. It'll come back to me too, and I accept that, but at least I acknowledge what I did and feel remorse for the innocent people that stand to be hurt if they find out what we did. You don't feel anything except interested in taking the responsibility off yourself........
...Since when is it good to be friendly with bad people? Since when is winking at their wrongdoing a virtue?
Perhaps someone can quote chapter and verse in the comments, because holier-than-thous really deserve to have their religion's true teachings show what frauds their twisting of religious doctrine makes them. In the New Testament, in Revelations, I believe, in one of the letters to the churches, some holier-than-thou Christians are read the riot act for that very same pretense.
The author unloads both barrels at them with this truth: "Good people are not lukewarm toward evil" it says.
Cowards are.
Loving good is hating evil. And vice versa. Love is an attraction; hate a repulsion. But that is too simple for complex people to understand.
Now I am not saying that we must reject everyone not perfect, for then we would reject everyone, including ourselves. But decent people need no instruction. There is a point at which behavior becomes predatory and malicious - a point at which one is morally obligated to separate themselves from that person.
You thus take away a bad actor's safety in numbers. You show disapproval. You discourage others from behaving the same way. You comfort the victim by showing him or her that the pain caused them by the bad guy matters to you.
Is any of that evil?
It's just a way of discouraging the harm the bad guy is doing others by showing that you want nothing to do with someone who hurts others like that.
Where is the sin in that, pray tell? Sounds like fine, upstanding conduct to me.
Jesus of Nazareth spoke of this when he said that "indecent conduct" is a special case and justification for divorce even. At the time, the terms "indecent" or "lewd" conduct simply meant "lowdown" or "despicable" conduct of any sort.
And that statement of his, qualifying his disapproval of divorce, is just common sense.
Why? Let's say you are married to a Mafia boss. Is it right for you live in his big fancy house, being waited on by his hired staff? Is it right for you to PROFIT from the crimes he commits and ther damage he does to people?
To the contrary: it is immoral for you not to divorce him when you find out what he is.
The same people who make a virtue of "accepting" abusive narcissists, relentlessly persecute anyone for any hint of racism or sexism. THAT they won't tolerate. They wouldn't DREAM of tolerating anything politically incorrect like that.
But though they know and believe that the narcissist has brutally abused you, they see no reason to show any disapproval of that.
Hmmm. Whom do they think they're fooling?
They make nothing of that narcissist's abuse of you. They countenance it.
If instead they rejected the narcissist, they would be doing the one small thing they could to get on the right side, the victim's side.
But they abandon the victim and smile in the abuser's face.
Not so holy as they pretend.
(note: Kathy Krajco passed away on May 9, 2008 - she will be DEEPLY missed)
By Daniel C. Maguire
People should be judged by the ideals they most loudly profess.
O.K., "Pro-Lifers," here goes.
Archbishop Tutu (would that we had even one bishop like him in the United
States!) writes: "Some 2 million children have died in dozens of wars
during the past decade...This is more than three times the number of
battlefield deaths of American soldiers in all their wars since
1776...Today, civilians account for more than 90 percent of war
casualties."
Children are the prime casualties of modern war. As Professor Jeffrey
Sachs of Columbia University writes: "Children in urban war zones die in
vast numbers, not just due to violence, but also from diarrhea,
respiratory infections and other causes, owing to unsafe drinking water,
lack of refrigerated foods, and acute shortages of blood and basic
medicines in clinics and hospitals." Pregnant women and their fetuses
suffer from these same lethal deprivations and pregnant women and their
fetuses are being bombed in their homes.
If you who sanctimoniously wear the "pro-life" banner were really
pro-life-and pro-fetus--- that would bother you and we would be hearing
your voices raised powerfully in peace protests around the world. We
don't. Therefore we must conclude that you are not "pro-life" and that if
you say you are, you are liars. (Those who disapprove of all abortions
and also oppose war must find another motto: "pro-life" has been coopted
on the American scene by right wing militarists.)
American military leaders in Iraq have been quoted as saying "we don't do
body counts." (Interesting, since even "the mob" does body counts.) The
respected British journal The Lancet does do body-counts; they counted
the bodies of civilians killed in Iraq. They concluded that there are
more than 100,000 civilians deaths, most due to U.S. military action.
President Bush is responsible for those murders because he entered this
war without the Declaration of War that the constitution (Article one,
Section 8) requires. A cowardly Congress in a week of infamy (October
3-10, 2002) limply handed over their war-declaring rights to him, giving
the president open-ended authority to use unrestricted power, which could
mean nuclear weapons, whenever he alone deemed it appropriate.
How did those who call them selves "pro-life" respond to this appalling
assault on the Constitution and on life. They voted en masse for George
W. Bush, the slaughter-master of Iraq, the killer of civilian men, women
and children, including pregnant women and their fetuses in a war that
Pope John Paul called a "defeat for humanity." Mr. Bush said he saw their
vote as an endorsement of his war. He was right. The election was a
chance to vote against that war, but, overwhelmingly the so called
"pro-life" vote was for war.
Can you understand why we call you liars?
Sister Joan Chittister writes of a front page, large four-color picture
in The Irish Times. It showed a small Iraqi girl. "Her little body was a
coil of steel. She sat knees up, cowering, screaming madly into the dark
night. Her white clothes and spread hands and small tight face were
blood-spattered. The blood was the blood of her father and mother, shot
through the car window in Tal Afar by American soldiers while she sat
beside her parents in the car, her four brothers and sisters in the back
seat."
Indifference to this and to all those war crimes like it, on the part of
anyone is criminal and sinful in the extreme. Indifference to it by those
who canonize themselves with the "pro-life" insignia shown by their
recent vote for more of it, is even worse. Such hypocrisy should be
called by its name. Its name is fraud. Its name is lying, lying under the
very banner of "life."
For all of you out there that have been betrayed, lied too, and utterly surpirsed with divorce; I am so sorry. It stinks, and life goes on. You will meet a person that deserves your love and generousity that is a true partner, and you will be able to pick better. It is not the pain the of the love affair, it is the pain of the lies and lack of respect or trust--that is a much more damaging wound.
Why is it that some people put themselves between a rock and a hard place? Then when they feel the pressure and full consequences of their decisions, they want to divert the pain, suffering, and blame to another? Some need to constanty beat others up or put them down in order to feel any self worth.
Some people believe the rest of the world is too stupid to add up the facts. Well, they are not. People came to me and asked my perspective because they had already come to their own conclusions. They KNEW. Many KNEW before me...
I asked for NONE of this info. Friends thought it was important for me to know the truth.
Guess what? My poo stinks, and cheaters and liar poop is even stinkier! Do I have issues, heck yah! Do I do my best to act with curtesy and grace, heck yah! Am I always successful, probably not...Am I a private person, heck no! I am as WYSIWYG as it comes, and bless my mother for that. The fruit falls close to the tree.
Face the music sweethearts, cause eventually the truth comes out and we all gotta dance. I'm ready to boogie because I am proud of my behavior and who I am.
Here's a dose of reality as I see it. Some may attest it might be warped. But my shrink and therapist seem to think that I am right on the ball. The fact I have a shrink and a therapist may leave some wondering, keep wondering and reading my blog....perhaps I'll share more on that topic another day.
Anyway despite my issues....I didn't screw my spouses' bestfriend. I didn't leave the man I love and devoted to for another that makes more money and seems "classier." BTW, stealing your bestfriends' wife ain't classy... nor is leaving your hubby and jumping into the arms of his good friend--not a very good friend if you ask me... but who am i?... the ousted x... I may be ousted... that doesn't change what they did...
i patiently waited months for my side of the story, and now that everyone knows, they can understand why I might be a little upset....
(If he'll do with you, he'll do it to you... someday ask about the one he left me for... he lost a house in that one... wonder why he sugested I sign a quit claim?)
I didn't think signing the quit claim mattered because he told me I was his soul mate, wrote me amazing love letters, and told me we would be together forever and have babies. We know how that turned out--don't we. Ahhhh to be young and naive.... LADIES... NEVER...EVER... sign a prenup or a quit claim...
I'm not perfect, and I'm hurt too, and I didn't run to the arms of my husbands' good friend for consolation. So Madame X has no right to send me harrassing text messages about slander when there are no names, and her comment, "divorce hurts." OH PLEASE! "Divorce hurts... yah think!?!? WTF? ... I've been living it for 9 months on top of betrayal, lying, and a narcisstic wound that she may be better than me... which we know is impossible at this point....
Although it is not about better or worse... just different.... they are going through a difficult time, and they are making these choices because they believe it is best for them, and it very well maybe... not for me to judge....
If they didn't want people to know, they shouldn't have done it. Did they think everyone was stupid. EVERYONE figured out about OREGON. Oh people--please! They are just too polite to say. They didn't have to talk to me or read my blog to figure it out. They came and told me....
Plus my blog is a mode of therapy. We know I can use some of that! OR at least that's how the story goes, many have told me.
Instead of running into the arms of my lover... because he kicked me out of our home. I went to a dog rescue and lived in a small room that smelled that urine because my husband refused any access to our accounts while she was sleeping in my home, in my bed, leaving condoms on the floor for my beloved dog to choke on. At the time, I prayed daily for what my beloved was going through hoping we would make ammends. Also, please note the people I stayed with are AMAZING, kind, and generous. Having all those rescue dogs as therapy and daily running on the farm was the BEST medicine for a wounded heart and betrayed spirit.
Anyway, Madame X better stop texting me harrasing garbage. She's got the man I thought was my soul mate, what more does she want? I've had it!
Actions speak louder than words baby! These words are pretty powerful, and some actions even more. Madame X needs to stop reading my blog, stop stalking me, and move on with her life. You think divorce hurts! She's got my husbands' heart, she fed him in front of me around a campfire on our 6th anniversary. Yeah, divorce hurts. There's one dead tree at Salt Point that can attest to that.
Just leave me alone to settle business, let me lick my wounds, and let me heal... she can go cry in the arms of my husband, in my home, with my dogs on her lap... in the bed we bought together and made passionate love on.... she made her bed, she can lie in it... yeah, i would say divorce hurts... he's all hers...good good luck & good riddance... why the heck would i want him
P.S: They've talked about spawning little babie's.... yah good luck with that... who's going to change the diapers... apparently they're both immune to shit...
As much as I wish these were uncommon events in our culture. They are not. So many have shared tehir own stories of pain and anguish. I am so sorry. Perhaps our culture needs to rethink the laws of "monogamy" and "marriage." I just don't know anymore, and have a ton to think about. Happily ever after only exists in Hollywood, trust love and devotion take WORK. May the two of them learn how to WORK on their problems and have a happy lives. They have a lot of WORK to do and a little relationship counseling in the beginning would probably be a good proactive step for them since they are beginning with a seed of mistrust and doubt in their hearts. May they enjoy there lives together, and leave me alone... divorce is simply business and a legal transaction at this point....
Forgiveness is not for the other person.... it is for you to find in your heart to move forward... daily i say a prayer of forgiveness for both of them... today i think i will be praying extra hard, somewhere between that rock and a hard place...
The most potent weapon in the hands of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed."
- Stephen Biko
DO THEY EVER ADMIT THEY ARE LYING OR TWISTED THE FACTS?
(EOPC believes Cyberpathy is an expression of Malignant Narcissism and/or Sociopathy - Fighter)
We work to try to understand the essence of the narcissist. When I was trying to explain the N to a friend, she understood an N as someone not "able to face the pain of imagining they did something wrong". I wasn't sure about this so did a quick internet search on narcissists and admitting wrong and accepting fault, and got these quotes: -
The narcissist sometimes notices that something is wrong with him and with his life -- but he never admits it. - ... the narcissist is incapable of admitting that something is wrong with HIM - They will never admit fault, they will never say they are sorry. If something goes wrong, they will play the victim. They will blame others.
"[I suspect my husband is a narcissist]. Last night we got into an argument over our daughters homework and he was absolutely livid because he was wrong and he knew he was wrong but could not admit it. He try's to place blame on anyone and everyone but himself."- Narcissists adores themselves. They live for themselves, they think they can do no wrong and will not admit to wrongdoing [re: traits common to 6 year olds and adult narcissists] - [For the narcissist] to admit to one failing, to acknowledge a mistake, even a simple human error of judgement, would be to open the door to the deep internal lack within. ... Such feelings of worthlessness are like an ocean being held back by a fragile dyke. The illusion of perfection, maintained by projecting faults onto someone else, is a barrier to be constantly tended, mended and shored up. To admit any feelings of deficiency would be the equivalent of poking a hole in the dyke, an event to be feared as a total disaster. Narcissists blame all problems on the "all-bad." It's never the narcissist's fault; it's always someone else's. The last paragraph speaks truly from a narcissist's perspective. It's the victim's fault. If the two of you have a conflict, he'll tweak the facts as much as he has to to make it all your fault.
Externalization of Blame -- The child cannot allow the bad feelings of being at fault for anything. He/she/they/YOU are the problem! He avoids feeling vulnerable by blaming others. The fragile self esteem cannot be punctured by taking responsibility for behavior. His script is "Do not expose me to those intolerable feelings inside. I can't handle it."
Since the false self is grandiose and perfect, relationship problems are never the fault of the narcissist. For making a change (whether great or small) implies that the narcissist has been two things they "cannot stand": imperfect (something is actually wrong with "them") and at fault ("they" actually were wrong, weak, or inferior somehow). It can't be HIS fault - he is perfect. The narcissist says in effect, "Something doesn't feel right. I'm too special to be the cause, therefore it must be your fault."
EOPC is loaded with examples of this, here's our sampling: (scroll over content to find embedded links)
BRAD DORSKY - his victim supposedly 'led him on.' Dorsky not only tried to rage at his victim, he sent a "friend" to find out who exposed him. Obviously, MR. DORSKY thought we were a bunch of barely legal kids on a social networking site; his favorite sort of target!
Says the relationship was consensual. This is a common one!
A relationship can not be consentual when the victim does not know the truthful facts to make an appropriate decision.
- Lying
- Telling her she's the only one
- Playing mind games with her
- Moving in on her when she & her husband/partner are having a hard time
- Moving in when she's vulnerable
- Having a 'hidden agenda'
Additionally is not always honest about his criminal record on the numerous dating sites he's on now. CLICK HERE FOR ONE OF HIS ADS Age 56? LOL!
(Here's the best one EOPC's heard!) Rumor has it that HICKS is shopping for a publisher for his book where he will tell the truth (he means his version of it a.k.a. complete fiction) and show how
1. two of his wives 'set him up just to get on T.V.' (EOPC is sure they had a great time telling the world how naive & used they were by Mr. Hicks) and
2. have lied about him as well as being 'mean' to his children (a.k.a. feeding, clothing, housing and taking care of his kids during their marriages while these kids sponged everything they could off them and various girlfriends of Mr. Hicks' simultaneously - just like Daddy!).
Additionally he plans to 'take legal action" against the producers of "Dr. Phil" and the WE show VERY BAD MEN who profiled him and showed him a bad light! Good luck with that, Mr. Hicks...
WILLIAM MICHAEL BARBER - back in jail after leaving the State in which he was incarcerated without permission and found having a false Social Security Card & Number and falsified identity papers on him. (After his wives and victims repeatedly told probation officers he would do it again and he was let out of jail early anyway)...
BARBER was also profiled on the WE show VERY BAD MEN. Don't you think these people would be thrilled they are so famous?
"J"/ GRIDNEY/ YIDWITHLID - 1. EOPC ran his expose for the third time in June 2007. This time he became of aware of it and he attacked one of his victims as the sole person causing him "public embarrassment." No acknowledgment that his real name and location were not used by us on this site, at this same victim's request.
No mention on his part that his new nickname and website are now linked to yet another 'false personna and location' made up by him.
No thank you for the consideration his main victim showed his family. (EOPC has had no response to emails we have attempted to send to this victim)
2. "J"/GRIDNEY/YIDWITHLID blames ONLY one of his victims for all the postings about him despite her trying to get them taken down in March of 2007. (Now which one of EOPC's victims really controls the internet? Hmmmm?) On a website she has, she said the primary reason these site owners would not remove him - was because SHE WAS NOT THE PERSON WHO HAD POSTED HIM IN THE FIRST PLACE.
"J"/GRIDNEY/ YidWithLid also expects us all to take him at his & his spouse's word that this victim of his did something to his mother to try to 'drive her to a heart attack.' No proof however - as usual, just words.
And as she said on her site (which we found out she closed for a while to try to calm him down), if she (or anyone) had done something that heinous and he has hard proof? Why isn't she in jail or doing community service?
3. "J"/GRIDNEY also says it was consensual, but neglects to mention that none of his targets knew he:
- had online sex partner-wanted ads since 2000 (years before he ever contacted these normal women!!)
- was seeing sexual escorts at a brothel (the brothel is now closed in part to him threatening this same victim, her going to the police and the police finding out that he was posting online about his exploits at this brothel. Good going, "J"/GRIDNEY!)
- the police did some forensic recovery and found his computer to be full of porn and his credit cards traced back to phone sex lines from 1999/ 2000?
Did we mention he's tried to erase it all and say it never existed? Sound familiar?
Lying, telling some normal woman you just met online she's the only one, playing mind games with her, moving in on her when she & her husband are separating, not supporting her when her husband finds out about their online affair and abuses her worse, hitting on her friends (we have evidence he hit on THREE of the friends of the first target!!) and she's mentally & emotionally vulnerable, as well as having a 'hidden agenda' does not make for consensual.
It does make for predatory exploitation.4. "J"/GRIDNEY wants this victim to withdraw her copyright to EOPC. Why? because some of their chats are on our site - and that's TOO MUCH PROOF OF HOW HE ABUSES TRUSTING WOMEN!!! She asked in March 2007, before we ran his story again. We refused.
Additionally, law enforcement gave all her chats to another of his targets and this other woman, as well as law enforcement gave us permission to use them! We were sensitive enough to not use certain chats that we were given at the very-person-he's-blaming's request. She wanted to protect his family and identity. Now of course, she's getting all his blame. No good deed goes unpunished.
5. "J"/GRIDNEY/ YidwithLid on his hate website about his vendetta says to one poster that he was angry that this target posted about him on an MSN Group.
Wait! Those are support groups for victims? Now, how did he find her there? Was he surfing for her? Reading everything she wrote and vented and cried about? Yes! He did!
In her 2004 interview with us his Target #1 told us that once the support site owners told her he was coming there and clicking on her story? She tried to get it all removed and the site owners refused. This victim left the support site partly because of this. Just like we refused. That's the nature of the policies of our sites and she wasn't the only person who wrote us about him!
According to guys like"J"/GRIDNEY/ YidWithLid - victims aren't allowed be hurt, complain or look for support either. They are allowed to be portrayed as SCORNED WOMEN. LOL - How's that for 'nice guys'?
DOUG BECKSTEAD - an "investigator" from the Air Force Base with which Beckstead's associated wrote us and subsequently, one of his victims trying to find out who she was, get her to phone them, etc etc. How much should we bet that it was one of Beckstead's friends trying to be sure who blew the whistle on his online predation so he could attack & bully her?
And guess what! Beckstead was mentioned in this very Air Force Base's newspaper so - must have been looking to clean up his image before they added to his overblown ego.
Rumor has it he's got another one 'on the hook' already. Don't we already know what he's telling her? And check the update we just did on him and all the stuff he's posted all over the web - trying to drown out the truth and glorify his 'reputation' when he's really a predator!
JULIA BISH-JUDAH-HUNT-McGOVERN? Just look at her interview. That says it all about how 'innocent' she considers herself after meeting men online and marrying them without even meeting them in person, among other things.
PHIL HABERMAN - click here for an update on this story.
The "scorned woman" defense.
The "they are lying/ making it all up/ just jealous/ never happened" defense.
You name it - you'll hear it with these people. Unfortunately sometimes their families or friends still believe them. Until its too late and they are caught doing it again. Do we see a pattern here?
As the article above says: IT'S NEVER THEIR FAULT. MUST BE THE INVISIBLE PERSON! NEVER THEM!
By the way, any Cyberpath who wants to write a full and accurate confession as well as an open, honest apology to any of the victims they have hurt, caused emotional & mental trauma, forced into counseling, sent to the hospital from trauma, caused rifts in their families, raged at, used and abused... we would be more than happy to publish it for you and see to it your victims get a copy of your healing words as well. (cyberpaths@gmail.com) If you would also like counseling for your issues in using people in this way - EOPC would be more than happy to help you find appropriate psychological help in your area.
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