On the front page of Sunday's paper, the headline read "Treatment would've killed girl, says prayer father defense".  The article went on to say that doctors would have likely killed the girl if she'd gone in for treatment because "her symptoms were far from typical for this complex disease."  It was also said that the doctors would have made mistakes and that they likely would have done standard procedures which would have hastened the girl's death because of the way diabetes was operating in her body.  The assistant district attorney pointed out that she was pale, emaciated, and struggled to breathe in her final hours, was in a coma, and they chose not to seek a doctor's help.  He stated "this is not a case of a parent's right to raise kids as they see fit or the parent's right to pray.  It's about Madeline Kara Neumann's needless suffering and death."  The defense attorney urged the jurors to focus on the witnesses' descriptions of Kara's symptoms and to compare that with doctors' testimony on diabetes.

 

First of all, they can't possibly prove that medical treatment would have killed her.  Shit, I could have saved her - I've got enough insulin in my fridge to take care of a room full of diabetics!  By having doctors testify, they're going to quickly show that medical treatment would have saved her, not killed her.  Secondly, when I saw this headline, I reacted so strongly that I missed the aisle in the grocery store I needed to go in to continue shopping.  I was just completely dumbfounded!!  Lastly, what does the defense attorney have up his sleeve when referring to Kara's symptoms and comparing that to doctors' testimony on diabetes?  Is he going to try to suggest she wasn't diabetic?  If that is the case - 1) that can be disproved easily, and 2) besides the point what she died of - they let her health deteriorate for weeks, months even, and did nothing, even in the last hours of her life.  That is the point in this.  And clearly, I would be a biased juror in this case.

 

Today involved the first day of testimony.  The first person to testify was Dale Neumann's sister-in-law.  She stated that she went to police after Kara's death to urge them to investigate further because she feared for the safety and lives of the other children.  She felt that they were in danger because if they were sick or hurt they wouldn't receive treatment or help, and she also was afraid of a family suicide.  Apparently Dale told her that if they could do it all over again, they wouldn't change a thing.  Leilani's sister-in-law, Ariel Neff testified again - this time, however, she was less emotional....she was also the EX sister-in-law.  I suppose something like this could ruin a brand new marriage.  Can't say I blame her.  There was also testimony from a county dispatcher, police officer, two doctors, and two EMS workers.  They testified to Kara's emaciated condition and that she had a fruity scent to her breath.  The fruity scent is a classic sign for diabetes ketoacidosis.

 

It was also announced that Leilani Neumann will testify.  Something called the "Use Law" is going to be used, which means that whatever is said during her testimony won't be used against her during her sentencing in October.  (Damn)  It's expected that she'll testify tomorrow.  I suppose it was planned this way: her husband didn't take the stand in her trial because he had yet to stand trial and anything he said could be used against him, and now that she's through with hers, she's got virtually nothing left to lose.

 

One other interesting bit of information is that twice during trial, the courthouse fire alarms were activated.  There was no mention about increase in security for this trial - as was done for Leilani's trial - so I'm not sure if security was increased or not.  My theory, if security was not increased, is that someone did it to create chaos and try to prolong what would only take place after the building was secured.  If it was only false alarms, oh well.  Just seems too odd to be mere coincidence, ya know?

 

I'll keep updating as the week progresses.

 
   

 


 
 
rv1501 on
Re: Sunday-Monday Trial Updates
Christonacruth, the fruity smell alone of ketoacidosis would give any EMT or ER MD a 99.9999999% chance of correct diagnosis!

 

The defence attorney's "theory" is going to get shined up real pretty, turned sideways and shoved straight up his candy ass! What A MORON!!

wonderingsoul on
Re: Sunday-Monday Trial Updates
Christona....what?  That's a bigassed word I've never heard/seen, so now I can say I've learned something new!    I've always heard the smell described as similar to nail polish remover - acetone.  See, that's the thing about this case, something mom pointed out.  While the publicity may slant a jury one way, the lack of knowledge about diabetes might bring it back towards being neutral.  If they play up the stuff about diabetes, they could really confuse people who don't have a clue.  That's what bothers me because there are still people out there who don't know the basics.  Personally, I just wonder if he knows he's going to lose and he knows it's not worth trying too hard.

 

The two doctors who testified were an ER MD and a pediatric endocrinologist - child diabetes doc.  A guy I used to see; personally I couldn't stand the guy, he had no bedside manner.  But if he helps to convict these parents, more power to him!  I'm not writing all this to say that people don't have the right to pray or follow whatever faith they choose.  But my argument is that if God created everything, then He also created the plants and the knowledge that were given to people who chose to go to medical school, and to the people who are professors at those medical schools, and in turn, he created these wonderful people called doctors who are able to treat illnesses.

 

Funny story.  My cousin works at a gas station and the defense attorney (and his wife) come in there.  Recently he came in and my cousin commented about him being on the front page, and he just said "yeah, you'll have that with this kind of case".  But I guess another time he came in with a shirt on that said, "I don't lie, cheat, or steal....unless its for drugs"    My cousin said he's a really hilarious guy and his wife is this hot chick who likes to drink and take her clothes off.  I guess this would be funnier if you heard it from him, a 23 year old guy, rather than just being typed out!

rv1501 on
Re: Sunday-Monday Trial Updates
Oops, sorry, that should be " Christonacrutch".

 

Hmmmm... "interesting" wife!   

 

Where the hell was she all the times my cousin played in that area!!

wonderingsoul on
Re: Sunday-Monday Trial Updates
LOL!!
resable on
Re: Sunday-Monday Trial Updates
"On the front page of Sunday's paper, the headline read "Treatment would've killed girl, says prayer father defense". ( AND THEY ASCERTAINED THIS, HOW?) The article went on to say that doctors would have likely (BIG ASSUMPTION HERE) killed the girl if she'd gone in for treatment because "her symptoms were far from typical for this complex disease." ( IF THIS WAS SO, THEN IT WAS THEIR PARENTAL AND MORAL RESPONSIBILITY TO SHARE HER ENTIRE COMPLICATED HISTORY WITH THE DOCTORS SO THAT THEY COULD DETERMINE AN APPROPRIATE CARE PLAN BASED UPON HER SPECIAL NEEDS) It was also said that the doctors would have made mistakes ( MISTAKES LIKE ACTUALLY PROACTIVELY TREATING HER AND ATTEMPTING TO PREVENT HER DEATH????)and that they likely would have done standard procedures which would have hastened the girl's death because of the way diabetes was operating in her body (BECAUSE ONE MUST ASSUME THAT DOCTORS KNOW ONLY ONE WAY TO DO THINGS, RIGHT?)  The assistant district attorney pointed out that she was pale, emaciated, and struggled to breathe in her final hours, was in a coma, and they chose not to seek a doctor's help ( AS IF THAT DIDN'T HASTEN THE GIRL'S DEATH IN ITSELF????)  He stated "this is not a case of a parent's right to raise kids as they see fit or the parent's right to pray.  It's about Madeline Kara Neumann's needless suffering and death." ( UM.... SO THE RESULT OF THE PARENTS INACTIONS WAS WHAT THEN?  HEALTH AND LIFE????) The defense attorney urged the jurors to focus on the witnesses' descriptions of Kara's symptoms and to compare that with doctors' testimony on diabetes."( YES I, TOO, WOULD URGE THAT.  TALK ABOUT OPENING MOUTH AND INSERTING FOOT!!!)

 

 The defense attorney is performing a classic defense ploy; the dest defense is a good offense. 

I sure hope that the jury sees through all of the assumptive claims.

I don't want to completely villify these people.  But as I have said before, you do not OWN your children and you do not have the right to willfully choose between life or death for THEM, even if your faith tells you that you believe you are doing the right thing. 

wonderingsoul on
Re: Sunday-Monday Trial Updates
I do so love your sarcasm! 

 

If I remember correctly, from information published during the last trial or shortly after Kara died, she hadn't been to a doctor since she was 3 years old.  So, providing any sort of history for the doctors would have been nearly impossible for these parents to do, had they chosen to take her in for treatment.  Maybe it could be argued that the doctors would have contributed to her death, but only because of the parents preexisting advocacy for their daughter's well being.  The doctors could have inadvertantly done something, not knowing of another underlying condition - but only because the girl hadn't been to a doctor since she was 3 years old....not the doctors fault though.  Not something they could be sued for wrongful death for, I wouldn't think.

 

I, too, hope the jury sees through all of this.  Leilani testified today; I'll be posting her stuff later - and WOW, the things she said about prayer vs. medicine....going to a doctor would be disobeying what they believed in.  *shakes head*  Everyone should have something to believe in, but they had no right to decide to let their daughter die.  Until she was 18, they had a responsibility to keep her safe, healthy, alive.....and they failed.  Whether faith is involved or not, they failed.  Because faith is involved its slightly more complicated, but she could have made her own decisions once she was of age.  Before that, it was up to her parents to make decisions that would result in her staying alive, NOT in her demise.

resable on
Re: Sunday-Monday Trial Updates
Agreed.

 
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