I do appreciate this post. Thank you for your kind words of affection for me, too.

 

I agree with a lot of what you pose here in the form of questions. I have wrestled with the forms of Christianity that exist today as many of them do seem to conflict with the Word. I call it the Christian religious system, and as a system it seems to be no better than any other. Much of what I learned about church leadership must be discarded, since it is the formulation of humans, and so much of it is in immitation of the Church of Rome.

 

However, I do believe that Christ did give gifts to the Church, and they are for her edification. We need apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers and evangelists. But I don't think these are offices to be "voted" upon, so much as they are gifts that become evident within the Body. Our sister, Sandi, for instance, is definitely a teacher in the Body. She doesn't need anyone's seal of approval to do so, she merely teaches the Word, and people are edified and strengthened. Our brother Jim, as another example, has a heart for the lost, and has been a missionary to foreign countries. Seeking and saving the lost is the job of an evangelist.

 

That is not to say that one must have a title or a formal "calling" in order to fulfill the work of God! In fact, I believe that those who are part of church government (as is modeled in Acts) must help others to develop their gifts and callings - that's what they are supposed to do! If we were doing this, we would work ourselves out of a job.

 

By the way, I have never taken a salary, even when I had a congregation to watch over. The only offerings I have ever collected were for a missionary in the Philippines and his flock. He is Filipino, and he does not have resources for many of the wonderful works he does.

 

The only church building I have ever helped to build was a church for that same Filipino pastor - and it was made of banana wood, cinder blocks, and corrugated steel for the roof. This was simply so that his little fellowship of believers would not have to meet in the rain under the trees.

 

I don't say these things from a sense of self-righteousness. No, but from my sense of conviction and belief after searching and studying and learning the workings of organized religion from the inside out.

 

I believe in small groups that minister to one another, and to larger groups that proclaim the gospel to those who haven't heard it. I believe in the gathering together of people according to the book of Acts, and in ministry to folks who need healing.

 

I don't believe in fat churches and rich pastors. I don't know how "pastors" per se became the leaders of the church, either (to the exclusion of apostles, prophets, teachers and evangelists). Christ is the head of the church. But let's not throw out the need for the gifts He has given to the church to build her up.

 

I suppose I am considered a rebel by some, since I don't hold the party line even within my own religion. I seek to serve the Lord. He gave me a shepherd's heart, and I try to do my job as He has called me. I make mistakes, but in no way do I seek to garner a following for myself, and I am not above having the need for forgiveness.

 

Wow... so much food for thought here. I hope you continue with this sort of discussion. I think it is very helpful. I think that's all I have to say for the moment.

 

love,

 

Cathian

Thank you so much for your honest response.  I agree with 99% of what you say here.  Yes, there are gifts given to the Body for her own edification.  I guess I just don't see that as a "worship" service.  "Body ministry" is one thing and Salvation ministry another, at least as I see it.  Paul did a lot of Body ministry via his letters, and it is strange to me that we do not have more evidence of his public ministry aside from his confrontations with the various authorities.  I wish we had more, or maybe you know of more ... ?  I happen to believe that a vast majority of these ministry gifts (from Eph 2) are undiscovered.  Not all denominations welcome them, for one thing, and not all embrace women in leadership as another, but many believers simply are not taught how to "feed" themselves.  They never mature beyond the toddler stage because they don't understand their commission.  So they sit in the smae spot, on the same pew in the same building every Sunday and listen to the same person say the same thing over and over for 15 - 45 minutes, sing a few songs and go home thinking they have "worshipped" God.  OY!  *taking a deep breath ... exhaling slowly* 

 

Anyway, I figured it was time to  ... umm, come out of the closet, so to speak!  lol  Enjoy the discussion. 

ooops!  hahaha my daughter left it in her screenname!  lol  This is Barb now, but that is my resply above also as phsbum! 

If you believe that Jesus and the Father are one, then you have to believe that Jesus is behind the inspiration for the Bible.  If you believe that, then you have to believe that what he directed to be written about meeting together for the apostles' teaching (passed around in early church letters, some of which we have, many of which we do not) and for prayer and communion, is also willed by Christ.

To me, it's relatively clear. 

The corporate church group is supposed to build one another up and edify one another for the purpose of sharing the gospel with those who do not know Christ.  That is the function of the Body, as I understand it, in brief form.  An arm cut off from the body will atrophe, sicken and die from lack of nutrients and support and exercise. 

Now, some are truly able to learn from God's word on their own. But just as a newborn infant needs care and needs to learn how to grow, so do new Christians, young Christians, and those who are weak need care to learn to become strong.  Never independent from the head, Christ, but able to function in a proper way.  These are people that can operate house churches,  maybe, or church plant, or have ministries of there own to promote the Lord's salvation.  These are people who have disciplined themselves to BE disciples, apart from a separate teacher/leader/director.

The early church met to talk about what Christ talked about. His three year mission cannot be seen to encompass what he believed about "church" since that was not his purpose at that time. He did, though, attend the local synagogue himself.  He was not adverse to corporate worship, certainly.

I understand that many have forsaken corporate worship and/or study because they have been hurt by a church group. I have been hurt too, repeatedly. Still, I believe strongly that I am a part of a body, with gifts to benefit the body. I can use these gifts apart from the body, but not nearly as effectively as I can with support from a local church.  Accountability, too, I see as a good thing. Christ's disciples held one another accountable, as Jesus did, too.

I do know of some groups that will only allow themselves to grow to 13 because that numbers "Jesus and the 12."  But Jesus didn't just have 12 guys with him. He had 12, plus tens of others that traveled with him as well, who were never mentioned. Women, too, traveled with him, providing funds and other types of support.  He had a traveling corporate body of worship, not a stationery one.

Yes, churches can be problematic, but they are still, in my belief and experience, better for a believer than going solo.  Some people manage to have accountability and learning groups without ever having "church." That's cool; I believe they serve similar purposes.

But far too often, the solo believer can indeed suffer in both their own life and the job that God himself has chosen for them to do. And when I come to stand before God one day, I know I would rather not say that I ignored his inspired instruction not to "give up meeting together as some are in the habit of doing" because I thought that he didn't really mean it or something.

I would like to discuss this further, if you are willing.  I promise, ummm, civility in doing so!

psst ... that was me, but my daughter forgot to sign out!  lol  Sorry! 

What would you wish to accomplish by such a discussion?

Well, it does seem that others feel there are issues here worth a discussion.  Join or not, no matter to me. 

I just wasn't sure what the purpose was, is all. <smile> Discussing the errors in church leadership, the need for corporate fellowship, the difficulties one can face without regular edification or training from others who serve as you wish to do? <smile> I just didn't know where you were going.

I'm not sure it's  ... discussing "errors" in the church as much as the continued "evolution" or growth of the Church.  I do not look for errors just to look for errors.  I look to understand the errors I see, and, hopefully, shine (or obtain) a bit of Godly light on the subject.  Although the Church was God's idea, it is made up of and run primarily by humans who are subject to imperfections, misinterpretations, and religiousity.  I just think it is a good idea to take stock and analyze what is and then line it up with the Word. 

 

There are obviously several "issues" that face the Church.  An excellent and puzzling one is ... where does grace stop and permissiveness begin?  Are all sins indeed equal?  If so, why do we allow gossipers to remain while "excommunicating" adulterers?  See what I mean?  Where do we draw the line?  How about obesity?  How about anorexia?  Then ... there are the gender issues that persist in the Church.  Why are women still "second class" believers? 

Does that help? 

I agree with you. I left the big church thing a long time ago.

We just started a new Saturday night gathering in a church building mainly so we can have some live music.

 

After worship last night, we sat in a small group sharing amongst ourselves.

No 20 minute sermon from a pastor. Just believers sharing together and praying for each other.

 

 

In my understanding, that is how "church" ought to be.  Sharing a "fresh word" or insight we received, asking questions of other believers who know and understand.  The preaching is for the unchurched on street corners or in football stadiums.  But perhaps the most important thing is EVERY believer is involved! ... not just teh minister and two male buddies with the women babysitting in the back.  OY!

 

I left the organized church just before my divorce.  Perhaps it is more correct to say that they left me & my kids and actually embraced my abusive husband because ... GOD hates divorce!  again, OY!  But then God pulled me closer to Himself and has nurtured and fed me, taught me and embraced me ... US!  I have held my piece here so as not to ruffle feathers, but ... I actually believe at this point that as much of Christ's Body is outside the organized church as is within the walls, maybe more!

My husband loves the sitting around and talking and sharing.

We just didn't belong in the big church with the choir and the pastor giving a sermon he wrote earlier in the week.

Now the Holy Spirit is free to move and do what he wants.

 

Sounds about right, ma'am! 

We're happier!

 

I wish I could find others around here with similar beliefs.  I DO miss the social aspect of "church", the friendly support, but I have tried all the ones around here ... without love, they are like sounding brass or clanging cymbals.  I suppose the root question is why do Believers tend to put a pricetag on their love and/or their gifts? 

Now instead of dreading going to church, we are excited!

 

Ran into my old pastor yesterday. He is prophesizing doom and gloom for next year.

Are you feeling anything in the spirit realm?

 

TONS!  Mostly centered around the preparation of the Bride ... She's gonna have to grow up sometime or she will not be able to handle marriage to Jesus!  There is increased urgency in this and I think also that the networking of those outside the organized church is mushrooming into something more powerful and necessary.  There is purpose in it, in other words. ... YOU?

Thanks for a great post that has engendered a good discussion.
For my part, I just want to worship, serve and love God with a group of believers.  How that group is organized/manifested is less important to me than if I can serve God with a pure heart within its context. I'm not sure Jesus, the Lord of the church, is as worried about some things as much as we are. I think He's tremendously concerned with our hearts, no matter what form our gathering takes. There have been some "interesting" gatherings in the history of Israel, and people were able to walk with God in them. Think about the religious system available when Jesus was born. Yet, there were Anna and Simeon, the parents of Jesus and of John the Baptist, and probably a host of others. Does this legitimize the religious system of His day? No--clearly, Jesus considered it corrupt in many ways. However, we should note that His chief concern was about about the hearts of belief, obedience and love of those religious people--not their systems.

I agree with you in theory, but the point is that many church governments, for instance, do not permit women to do anything more than babysit and sing in a choir, so how are they (we) to achieve our calling?  When the vast majority of believers sit on their hands week after week, it's no wonder the world has trouble seeing Jesus.  But is Church leadership fostering an "outreach" mentality or a "selfish" one?  I agree that all I want to do is worship, serve (as gifted) and love God. 

Each of us is required to walk before and with God. We should be careful that we don't abdicate the obedience of our place with Him for our "rights."  I'm not condoning "unrighteous" church governments. But the Lord, on the Day, will ask you about your heart, not for an excuse concerning your church government. 

Exactly!    Do you think most Christians understand this?

I think some do, some don't. All stages of development and understanding. 

Thanks.  I always appreciate your insights.