Love this.

I agree! 

Great post!

When you ask a Christian why their so "homo-phobic " they tell you "God said  it is an abomination and worthy of death".
But didn't they read the part where God said "eating pork" was also an abomination and "picking up sticks" on the Sabbath was also a crime worthy of death"?
I wonder how many of those "God fearing Christians eat pork chops and bacon and do what ever they please on the Sabbath.

The old Jewish Law forbade eating pork or unclean things...but because the law was so difficult to keep, God sent his son....Jesus...who was to be the sacrificial lamb, to shed his blood for sin and to bring a new law...

Jesus heralded a new law....the New Testament....eating pork is fine...if one chooses..We all sin...do wrong things that separate us spiritually from God...but Christ provides the bridge...the way....forgiveness...

 

With regard to Homosexuality.  One is in God's design for mankind and one isn't...Which do you think would bring more sorrow to the Creator?

Both are sins...but one is grievous.

If eating pork is "old Jewish law" then everything in the OT is old Jewish law because the is no place it differentiates. So if you throw out the abomination of of "pork and shellfish" you must throw out the rest of the law as well.
There is nothing in the 10 commandments about homosexuality.
Seems to me Christians "pick and choose" what they wish to follow. 

All of the law is gone for Christians...

I remember years ago when I was trying to be very good...and I had to vacuum on a Sunday...cuz I had visitors coming over and I felt very very guilty and then someone said to me.....Birdie...Forget it...Remember..Christ abolished the old law when he came...all those jewish rituals....gone...those jewish laws of old...gone...

but we are to be holy people in our thoughts and actions...as Christ taught...Have I been Holy?  no...but still....I have his Grace and today...I try as many do...

As Christians, we are broad group...just as Catholics and Jews are ...Some Conservative...some Moderate...some more Liberal....The only rule is to try to follow goodness and Godliness...You have to follow your own heart...your own calling and you will find your answers...I am not a preacher...I dispise those who preach...It is not my calling...My calling is to be a voice that trys to make sense in a hurting world...not a judgement...

You'll find your way...

Your questions will lead you to where you want and need to be.

My "way" is reason, fact, ...humanism. I'm not into myth and superstition.
But hey, good luck with "your way".

ditto with the good luck...That's what's so interesting about life...We are all different, but all trying to make the most of our life...our choices..

Humanism is a great thing...I have know many wonderful, kind, humanists.

have a great day!

 

Just a side note, Catholics are part of the broad group of Christians, not a spectrum entirely of themselves.

Absolutely...I hoped that wouldn't be taken wrong..but Catholics have rituals they follow as did the old Jews...that is what I meant....penance, repetetive prayers, guilt about not following the Catholic rules...Other Christian groups pray directly, not through telling the priest...

Catholics have laws that I don't observe...but absolutely....they are Christian....and I have attended mass many times.

Anglicans and other denominations still maintain much of the ritual and practice of Catholocism.

Very true!

Do you see your contradiction below?

With regard to Homosexuality.  One is in God's design for mankind and one isn't...Which do you think would bring more sorrow to the Creator?

Both are sins...but one is grievous.

I am not a preacher...I dispise those who preach...It is not my calling...My calling is to be a voice that trys to make sense in a hurting world...not a judgement...

Your statement is typically Christian: so predictable and self-righteous that it's embarrassing. You glibly and thoughtless denounce being gays as committing "grievous" sin only to backtrack and say, "I don't preach, I don't judge!"

Your interpretation of Scripture is thoughtless. If the Bible is indeed infallible and written by God, then why do you appoint yourself to say that the eating of pork, the mixing of fabrics, and disrespecting of one's parents -- all punishable by death in the Old Testament -- are no big deal? But being gay is "grievous."

Your version of Christianity is a toxic holdover of a bygone, superstitious age. Organized religion maintains its "order" by separating the "good" in-group from the "bad" out-group. Thankfully, the sins of the father shall be borne upon the son, and we shall all reap what we sow. Stand in judgment now to your heart's desire.

I make no apoligies for my opinion which I rarely give...As for typically Christian, The Christian followers I used to gather with would probably call me the Black Sheep...We all struggle...I never claim to be righteous....Obviously....discussing religion makes some people angry...so I shall be quiet on my beliefs...I don't namecall....I try not to judge, although I do at times..I quietly try to make my voice heard...but I shall refrain from any Christian dialogue...It shall remain in my heart and head.

^{Mark Chapter 16:}

¹⁴Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.  ¹⁵He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. ¹⁶Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

You wrote:

I quietly try to make my voice heard...but I shall refrain from any Christian dialogue...It shall remain in my heart and head.

I don't talk much about my faith because it seems to anger people and I am opposed to anger..

My faith comes from my belief..

If asked, I talk about it...but never when someone engages becomes confrontational..I don't enjoy disharmony..

 

I believe that God puts people in our lives that we influence without preaching...

 

 

 

 

 

The law and the ten commandments are not the same thing.  There were many laws, which Christ came to fulfill, but the ten commandments still stand because we now have the Holy Spirit to help us to overcome in these areas.

I never said they were! I said there was nothing in the 10 commandments about homosexuality.
I said you can't throw out part of the law and keep the rest. If you throw out the part about shell fish being an abomination then you must throw the part about men lying with men being an abomination also. You cannot pick and choose as it pleases you.

and that is true

With Christ the old Sabbath rules do not apply...He became angry when the hippocrites followed the old laws but their hearts were evil..He called them on it...overturned tables in the temple....gave them.."hell"....None of that matters he said....I am a Christian...following the new Law..I try to be as good as I can....I fall short...but I now....know which way my feet are planted and I try again....This is life..

Excuse me but the law was never to be changed or discarded.The OT says over and over that the laws and statutes were forever over and over again.
NKJ: Lev: 23:14
Lev: 23:21
Lev:23:31 Just to name a few.
I think people who follow  Paul's laws have evil hearts for they cast aside the laws of the one they claim to follow.
Such as  "Love your neighbor", "judge not lest ye be judged"
Jesus never once spoke of homosexuality but spoke of many, many other thing. Apparently, it wasn't important to him.

I am not speaking of the 10 commandments, I am speaking of the laws on clean and unclean, on Sabbath, on all of the Holy rituals..

God is God...He changed the Jewish Law.....not the 10 commandments handed down from Moses...

 

If you believe in Jesus, the old laws are gone regarding sin offerings etc.

I can't discuss what Jesus/God thought about Homosexuality...He created man and woman...and from there...you have free will...but God did judge those who were sexually immoral and there were consequences;  he kept them in the desert for years, struggling to find their place,  keeping them from reaching the promised land..

 

 

If the bible is true, God says 'I change not". Meaning his word would not change nor his mind. So the OT could not be  disregarded or "changed" according to Gods own word.
I too am speaking about the "laws and statutes. They were to be "forever". God did not change Jewish law...he said it was forever.

 

There are many things I could say about Jesus and why he came and how it changed the law....Of course....the old law remains but those who believe in Jesus became sanctified....in the new covenant...

For me....the old law has been changed ......with the coming of Christ..

It is all symantics..Jewish law is forever...but those who believe in Christ have been forgiven and no longer are under the old law..

That is my take on it...but I am not a bible scholar nor profess to be...Just a woman coming back full circle in her Christian beliefs.

Actually, most of the laws came from Moses. Not just the Ten Commandments but the other laws, too.

Every case in which the Bible condemns homosexuality, it is part of a group offense.

For instance, those guilty of it in the Old Testament who were denied the promised land had also broken other parts of the Old Law.

In the New Testament, the context in which homosexuality is criticized is as part of pagan mysticism.

In both these cases, there are other, distinguishing characteristics which would have made the sexual acts immoral even if they had been of a heterosexual nature.

Thankyou for the information...As I said...my personal belief is that all sexual activity outside of marriage is wrong...Do I obey....No....which is a big reason why I am a sinner...However, my gut tells me that Homosexuality hurts and Angers God more than heterosexual acts...but always....it is not black and white...If I were a Gay Christian, in love, I know that the heart of God would forgive.....I was just giving my opinion but.....again...God judges the heart ......more than the action...

 

Actually, robot, as a fellow christian I should warn you that it is very dangerous to say "at least my sin isn't as bas as that sin." The truth is, sin is sin and although different sins may have different consequences in this world, they all have the same spiritual consequence, that being, seperation from God. You do not make yourself look good in other people's eyes to say that when you sin it's not quite as bad as when that person sins. Take the log out of your own eye before trying to take specks out of other people's eyes.

Did I say that?  Probably did..Well slap my hand, because of course I know that any sin separates us from God....Any sin...I think sins that go against creation may be worse...but I don't know...Only God knows...

I responded here in the moment and didn't expect to take on Bible Scholars...I was expressing myself...Sometimes we need to hear other people's viewpoints. ...All sin is bad...All sin separates us....We are all sinners...and I do believe that there are no rules with Love.....I am not judging...If it sounds like it....I apologize...

 

I know you did not mean it as it sounded, but we must be careful with our tongues and watch what we say and write, and I was merely reminding you of that.

You're right...Thankyou.....I will remember.

We all struggle..Our judge sees the heart...and our struggle and loves us.

 

I know nothing more than that...I trust God is fair.

I know God is Love...I don't have answers...I am only thinking out loud, enjoying a conversation..If I made it sound as though I had knowledge to impart, I gave the wrong impression...I learn through dialogue...We all do.

If I may say something, (which I may since this is my blog), in my understanding (which is not perfect) the coming, death and resurruection of the Christ did not change the reason of the old laws, but did make some of them redundant as Christ took the consequences of them onto himself, created a bridge from man to God and negating the need for a priesthood. So you have to look at each of the laws independantly, the Ten Commandments as well as the other laws, analyse whether it was made redundant, still stands, or is heightened to a new level.

I remember this being explained to me and it made sense at the time, (and in fact was explained to me by a man who chooses not to eat pork and other such foods since he did not believe that was one of the laws made redundant.)

Also, you talk of God changing his mind but I don't see it that way; I see it more as an overall plan for humanity that is executed in stages. Who knows, one day people may be referring the current day as The Middle Testament.

To go from death sentences for trivial things, and complete slaughter of villages including babies and animals to "pray for your enemies" is a huge change by any stretch of the imagination.

And are you saying Jesus supposedly only  did away with some laws? What scripture tells which laws or statutes he did away with?

The bible can be interpreted a million different ways and none of those interpretations can undo all the errors and inconsistencies.

Was it's Gods "plan for humanity" for nations to be at war? For children to starve? Torture and abuse?
If he see's all, and knows all he then knew what was going to happen ..right? he knew about the children who would be kidnapped, raped, and tortured , he knew six million innocent Jews would be baked in ovens and gassed to death...yet it was all in his plan for humanity?

Nimbo, You articulated this point as I wanted to..

Thankyou.

That must be rough, being part of a religion that automatically tells its members they can never be good enough. Sounds like a few relationships I've witnessed.

I try to be as good as I can....I fall short...

but Schencha, even though none of us are perfect...I have always felt very loved by God...even in my sin..

We all fall short...God knows that..

but if our hearts desire good...he also knows that..

sigh..

I am thankful that I feel loved by God...

I am thankful.

that's it.

How do you suppose God (who says I change not) went from stoning rebellious children and people gathering sticks on the sabbath, and ordering the death of entire races of people, young and old and taking virgins....to "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".?
Sounds to me like he changed  a whole lot.

I love my child...my creation...although they love me not...

yet I love with Agape love...forever love..

so.............since they are rebelious and know sin...I

shall show them myself as a man....one who can live as a man, be tempted as a man, love as a man, forgive as a man and feel everything that man feels ...and take on their sin....

 

While God was on the earth, he became man in every sense....

He did it because he loves his creation and he wanted to provide a way....to peace, joy, and salvation....but mostly he wanted man to know his love..

He experienced every temptation a man could experience and he overcame them...

Was he tempted with drugs? Sex? tax evasion? gambling? Cheating on his spouse? Was he tempted to beat his children?

Matthew 23:23   Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

He didn't not "cast out the law". He said keep the law plus do this also.

This just kills me! First, people go on with platitudes about homosexuality like it is nothing more than a simple alternative life style. The dialogues continue along pseudo-intellectual paths to arrive at multitudes of nothing.  Perhaps we should take a more basic look at the facts that were once understood before we began torturing our minds into deriving an explanation that makes it all OK.
Just check the plumbing. Do I need say more? Also, on the point of moral relativism: The argument employing the immorality of one to justify the immorality of another is fraught with peril. For example, it we only accepted the morals espoused by the totally pure, we are doomed to total chaos.  Can you imagine?  Everything is OK because there are "hypocrites" - everyone has sinned and comes short of perfection. So, it is alright if I do it. What would we do if all policeman were required to have never committed a crime, infraction or violation?

Today's society has blackmailed its consistence against true morality in all areas. Those who disagree and only think that we are on the path of enlightenment need only look at world conditions.

It's a good thing that human beings are more than just "plumbing".

I agree. Unfortunately many do not.

I never said in my post that it was okay, or that a Christian struggling with the issue needn't worry about it anymore because we're all bad. The spiritual journey is a long one and one we must all struggle with and it is a journey of constant self-improvement.

If there is an area with which we are unrepentant, we need to repent.

I was just pointing out a hypocrisy amongst Christian communities, and hypocrisy is something I think must be fought against more than anything else, more than homosexuality, for example. I'm not condoning homosexuality within the church, I don't condone pre-marital sex within the church, either.

I'm just saying that I don't see myself as any more righteous as a gay christian. I struggle with things too, and my struggles are no less dire than theirs.

Yet, when I enter a church, in spite of my imperfections, I am welcome with open arms. I wonder if I would be as welcome if I entered a church with my lover girlfriend. I'm not saying that we should ignore homosexuality within the church, like I said, it IS an important issue. But I think it should be seen on equal terms with the other things that people struggle with on a day-to-day basis.

(My hypothetical lover girlfriend, just to clarify.)

The world ain't no worse than it was two thousand years ago in most respects.  Even the Apostles believed Christ would come back in their lifetimes, as they saw the signs that the prohecy regarding the last days were already fulfilled.

The prophecies regarding the Last Days certainly were NOT fulfilled during the times of the Apostles. Apostle John penned Revelations which contained much of the FUTURE events when John was very near the end of his life time - close to 100AD. The Apostles were told by Christ many things that on their surface would cause them to believe His return was immanent. But they did not have a fuller understanding of future events then because they did not have the New Testament.

To say the world was no worse to day than 2k years ago is akin to saying it was no worse at the time of the flood than it was at the time of the very earliest man (The Bible says that "violence had come to the full" just preceding the flood).  In all respects man is basically the same. In most all respects the world is much more perilous now than ever before.