When people try and convince me that God doesn't exist, it'd be about as effective as trying to convince me that they don't exist when they're just standing there in front of me, arguing about it. They can show me documents and make arguments that can't be argued against that shows beyond any reasonable doubt that they don't exist and I can listen too them and look at their proof and think, "Hey, wow, that's a good point: it totally makes sense that you don't exist." But I'll still have a hard time believing it. Not when you're standing right there, and I can see you and touch you and smell you and hear you, and you're real to me as the sun is real to me and my friends are real to me and trees are real to me and the food I eat and the air I breath is real to me.
You can convince me that what I've always believed to be your nature is wrong, that I've been deceived; I thought you were one thing, you might convince me that you're something else. But you'd have a hard time convincing me that you don't and never have existed. You might say, "It's all self-delusion," but if you can convince me that God is self-delusion, than you can also convince me that the heat of the sun is self-delusion, and the air I breath is self-delusion, the food I eat is self-delusion and my very existence is self-delusion, and that you don't exist even when you're standing in front of me and arguing to me about it. God isn't just an idea to me, a concept that can be argued about, an opinion; He is as real to me as touch and sight and smell and taste and sound. No, I don't see God as a person in human form standing in front of me, arguing with me; but I do see him in everything I see; like the World shimmers like a curtain and behind it all there is God. And no, the World doesn't really shimmer, that's just a metaphor. But it's like that. I don't mean having "a spiritual experience"; I might get those from time to time but I can also get a similar experience by eating an extremely hot curry. It's more substantial than that. Like I can taste God.
The truth is; those things, the sun and the air and food and people and everything I can see, smell and touch? I have less faith in the existence of those things than you might imagine; if there's anything I've learned in my short 23 years of existence, it's that nothing can be taken for granted. I might be insane. I believe I know the difference between reality and fantasy as much as a sane person does, but I cannot rely on my own opinion on this matter; you can always ask my friends, although they might be insane, too. Maybe nothing is real, that it is all an illusion. It'd be hard to live life believing that all experience is nothing but an illusion, although I suppose it's possible; I'm just saying that God is as real to me as those things are. The nature of God, the little details I believe in; about heaven and hell, if God is a woman, if animals have souls, even how I should understand the bible; it is worth arguing with me about. I don't believe the same things about God as I did as a child. But try and tell me that God isn't real at all? Show me all the proof you want, you might think I'm being unreasonable, stubbornly blinding myself to logical arguments that are staring me in the face. Those are all well and good, but all the while you're arguing with me about it, it's like God is standing behind you and winking at me.
I don't know why I bothered writing this, though, as people who don't already understand this will think this is just another practice in self-delusion. Even as I'm writing it, I'm wondering the same, seriously considering whether this is just an attempt to deceive myself. But the conclusion I come up with is that if it is, then the sensation of touch that the nerves on my fingertips are sending to my brain as I tap the keys on my keyboard might also be a self-delusion, and then it doesn't really matter as you will never even have read this since I never wrote it in the first place.
My faith in God isn't perfect, though. I remember one sleep-deprived night, lying in the backseat of the car on the way back from a long trip, when I truly convinced myself that I don't and never have existed. After half an hour of napping and waking up again, I realised that what I had believed only moments ago was absurd, but that's also my faith in God; it's about as strong as my faith in my own existence, and my own sanity, and those are things I've been known to doubt about.
I just want to make an addendum that isn't necessarily related to your actual post:
Some people have difficulties understanding that others choose to believe in God because it works for them, for their lives, for how they were brought up, among other things.
They believe everyone must break down their beliefs into pretty much "raw numbers" and factor out things like experimentation, experience, convenience, and the like, which makes them hypocritical because they themselves will only do this when it conveniences them to do so (nobody is capable of sitting down and breaking down every tiny facet of their lives).
These people don't actually understand what it means to "understand," and, frankly, sucks for them.
People's beliefs have little to do with their intelligence (as much as taking X classes in high school/college do).
We live in an era where comfort is our main internal priority. If an "illusion" makes your life more comfortable, then by all means, be delusioned. People clearly can get by rather well in a delusion, and they spend less time worrying about things that don't actually affect their lives.
I would not want to believe in a delusion over the truth even if it means being comfortable, although in the end, when it gets down to the nitty gritty, how can we tell the difference? When it comes down to it, our perceptions are all we have to go by; if our perceptions seem to agree with other people's perceptions, then I suppose one can have a reasonable amount of faith in them, but how do we know if even perception by its own nature is not flawed? And in fact it's been demonstrated numerous times that perception can turn out to be false. The world is round, after all.
Believing in God does work for me, though; I believe I am a kinder, less selfish person for it; it is a motivation for me to be a better person. People can be motivated to be better people without believing in God, I know, but this one is mine. And yes, my spirit is comfortable with the existence of God; but the choice to believe is not necessarily one I make for comfort. I don't think Paul was very comfortable in his jail cell. I don't think Peter (was it Peter?) was comfortable hanging upside down from a cross Not that instances in my life can even be anywhere near compared to those ones. But the point is, I believe because I think it's true. Maybe I am deluded but it is not a delusion I choose for comfort. I can use logic to back my beliefs up, although logic can't prove the existance of God, just like it can't prove the non-existance of God. This is the hypocrisy I find with atheism (and I know Christianity has its own share of hypocrisy, too) as (many) atheists accuse us of having blind faith not backed up with logic, but it requires the same amount of faith to believe in the non-existance of God than it does to believe in the existance of God. Maybe more, since it's a lot harder to prove something doesn't exist than it is to prove something does exist.
I think agnostics have the logical way of it; since it is neither proven nor disproven, they'll not commit one way or another. I am not an agnostic, and I know us believers often critisise them for sitting on the fence, but I can understand their view more than anyone's.
Apart from my own, of course.
Okay, I love you. Oh, I also believe that you are... are... are... I don't know. Certainly, for me, your "argument" with whomever, is so, so convoluted and, again, for me, so nonsenseical that I cannot follow it. I am inclined to state that what you presented is insane in its' presentation.
To quote Forest Gump "I am not a smart man." I never studied logic and only had general math in high school. I say this to let you know that I do not hold myself out to be authoratative with my evaluation of your presentation.
With that being true I am not uncomfotable stating that noting that you have presented cannot stand any test of lucidity. It's, I say with sincere considered seriousness, I say your presentation is immature in the least and, more probably insane. It is insane. It is crazy; worthy only of being discarded out of hand. -David
Wait. You couldn't follow with what he said, but you stand to claim that you can make a proper judgment?
You might as well say the Chinese are all insane just because you couldn't decipher their language but recognize that they have numerous ways to say one thing.
At least he presented reference points and elaborations: you simply took numerous sentences to say and repeat "your argument is insane," making your entire post superfluous and more convoluted than his explanation, which is interesting because you said much less than he did.
But your entire lack of reasoning stems from the fact that his title said "Why I believe in God" and you decided this wasn't an elaborate explanation, but instead an "argument," which is a mistake too many people who "argue" religion make. Even if you had taken courses in logic, it wouldn't have helped you one bit. He answered a hypothetical question, not imposed a debate. Logic doesn't apply here; context and reading comprehension do.
Thank you, namastelaoshi, for your honesty.
And thanks for standing up to me swanginbajingo. In some ways, you are both right.
(Also, I'm a girl.)
XD Whoops. I fall into the group of people who use "he" as a generic pronoun for people and "she" as a generic pronoun for things. XD
Haha, it's okay. I've always considered it a lack in the English language that they don't have non-gender-specific, third-person-personal pronoun.
I was a member of this forum once, where one member mistakenly referred to another member as "he" and the other member made a post saying,
"You disgusting, chauvinistic pig! How dare you just assume I am male because I make an intelligent post! I'm a female! And here's proof, if you don't believe me!"
And then included a topless picture of herself, (with her hands covering her breasts.)
I'm not going to do that.
Why not, and what forum was this?
Oh, and hi, I'm the neighborhood single male pig.
I also like leaves and generally appear in society yellow-skinned with brown spots! And I tend to make giraffe-y noises.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7iuOZVJhs0
Move to about 1:52 in.
Sounds like a goat mixed with a sheep dying during lambing.
I'm going with Saikotik here.. "Why not?" XD
And I think my problem could have been cleared had I actually checked your profile... XD ...Or looked at your icon, but then again you could have been some weird d00d who likes weird things most typical guys wouldn't like (or admit to liking).
"You couldn't follow with what he said, but you stand to claim that you can make a proper judgment?" so say you. Correct? Well I thought that I made it perfectly clear that I was not too smart and that my "judgement" [I thought I was making and observation] should be highly questioned.
To clarify a error in my reply to Ms. Nimbo I offer the following: "...I am not uncomfotable stating that noting that you have presented cannot stand any test of lucidity." is an error. I should read "...nothing that you have presented can stand any test of lucidity."
Then "...he [she] presented reference points and elaborations:" True. She did a lot that which led to my observation that all such was so too, too convoluted to render it anything but immature in presentation and maybe even insane. It is what I said and I do not back down from what I said in this instance from the perspective of a not-smart man who, by the way, cannot also comprehend your presentation either.
I know that you know what is in my mind and what and how I think because, you did did you not, say that above. Thanks for your advise not to take a course in logic [something I had truly been considering at age 67]. Being assured by you that I would be a failure at it you have saved me some time and expense; neither of which I have great resources of. You so kind and considerate. Thanks, David
It's okay. You're welcome.

That's it? Really? You are so, so much better than me, indeed, and better than all of we and that's it? HUH? -David
Now, now. Don't get emotional on someone else's blog. We don't need to flood her inbox. If you have a complaint, come to my blog. This will be my last message so as to avoid any further nonsense on her recent updates.
"If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen." - President Harry S. Truman
There are some things than can never be explained through argument and yet are so real.
What matters is that the conviction you have in God's existence makes you love and care for others.
Even that cannot prove or disprove God.
Some things are not worth arguing about, the existence of god matters too much to get buried in arguments pro or con. Just living in the belif you have is what is most important.
You do a good job.
There are some things than can never be explained through argument and yet are so real.
What matters is that the conviction you have in God's existence makes you love and care for others.
Even that cannot prove or disprove God.
Some things are not worth arguing about, the existence of god matters too much to get buried in arguments pro or con. Just living in the belif you have is what is most important.
You do a good job.
i understand your conviction for your faith, i myself do not believe in god. there are a lot of contradictions in the bible. things i could never accept from a deity. Slavery is wrong, and the ideals that women are to be submissive is wrong as well. Although i have found there is great wisdom found within religious readings and teachings, the way that most of the followers go about it is wrong as well. I do not have faith in a being that i can not recognize with any of my physical senses. but i will give you one point on your side that maybe you have never thought of. Mind you i don't believe in god in saying this. But if there were a god, i think i could understand why they would make believing in them a faith and not a fact. If god were here and we could see them and touch them or talk to them, the effect that would have on people would be catastrophic. They would constantly go to the god for advice people would lose free will and creativity and diversity that has come to grow in humanity. If god were here with us its very presence would alter everything that we do and think. But with it being a matter of faith, we are given the choice within reason of whether or not god is there. I believe regardless of god or the afterlife there is a set of moral values we should all have. most of us fall so very short of it. I think part of why i began to stop believing was.. if there is an afterlife so be it. But i cant live my life looking forward to that, or basing my actions on heaven/hell. I have to; personally, feel that i am doing the right thing for NO reason other than the fact that i feel it is the right thing. But of course i am a mess of emotion bordering bipolar tendencies ranging from loving the world to hating everything in it, so what do i know. I hope, for our sake, that if there is a god, that when they created this world and humanity that they did so with an insight for the struggles of our pasts over differences in race religion sex and cultural beliefs, to forge a greatness in society in this world, as opposed to what i fear will happen... war and death for the entire age of humanity. We've only been here a blink of an eye. the sun will not burn forever, and the resources of this planet are not infinite, i just hope that this world will unite before the consequences of our growth as humanity is too great for us to continue this cycle as long as humanly possible. so yea i wrote a lot sorry. peace.