Ok, I just read all that, and I think I'm in love with your mind. (Don't take me for some weirdo that sits on computers and molests people, I'm not implying anything.) Anyway, awesome entery. That must have taken a long while to write. And to think of! Great job, and maybe we can discuss these things in greater detail.

glad to hear you aren't one of the "chosen" ones...  one never knows these days...  all kinds of seemingly sensible people let their defences down when it comes to religion, and their core beliefs are spared their standard critical assessments...  shitty. 

 

it is good that you love ideas, and the search for the truth and all that...  i love the fact that each of us can stand in ideological opposition to any or everybody else, if we deem it to be necessary and/or sensible...  i love the fact that some people try to see how their principles are manifested in reality (if at all)...  that some reflect rather than accept...  it's always refreshing to hear someone articulate our often unexplored convictions, or expand our perspectives by showing us the state of things from a new point of view...  of course there are tonnes of things anyone could learn from anyone else...  we each teach one instant, and get taught the next (if we are listening)...  it's too bad we all don't love our minds enough to explore them a bit...  there's all kinds of shit in there...  if we dug around a bit we'd never cease to surprise ourselves...  keep digging.        

I agree. I've never really understood why people use religeon to back up what they say. (eg: "Oh, I'm going to kill you because my god told me that I shall not suffer a witch to live.") In my perspective, religeon was created way back when, so people had an 'idea' of how things worked and why. Therefore, to me, there is almost no point today of even having religeon. (Which is why most people are athiests. Not that they actually see it that way, they just don't like to bother 'cause they're lazy.)

 

Anyway, yes, it's truely a shame people don't bother 'thinking' with their minds anymore and consentrate upon what is the reality of it all. Most people now think with their sexual organs. Just listen to the music they have on the air!! You really know the world's crumbling when stuff like that's in the music. (I chose only to listen to the radio now when Evanescence plays ONLY. I can't stand that other crap.)

 

 

Happy Digging!

yup... religion diverts us from the truth...  and yup, most modern music is bollocks...  and yup, most people are and always have been quite uncivilized...  human nature hasn't changed in recorded history...  we're still trying to claw our way out of our stone age mentalities... 

 

anyhow, you might like someone like bob dylan, or lots of bands from the 60's and 70's, if you're sick of the stuff on the airwaves right now...  most of the best shit from back then is an acquired taste though, just to warn you...  one thing humans have done half-decently is music (at times)...  keep on keeping on... 

I know it may seem like most people don't believe in anything devine because we're all so moraly screwed up but realy the vast majority claim to hold some belief in a higher power. I mean even look in the "non-religious" group which inclueds atheists, it says half of them believe in something it just wasn't something that had a big enough folowing to have a category. I'm not trying to be obnoxious I just wanted to let you know because I was shocked when I learned this too [I formerly thought most were atheists]

what, uh, sect (?) of Christianity are you?  If I had to guess I'd say you're a Quaker...  I've heard some interesting things about them...  Protestant?  I've only ever met a handful of people who didn't believe in A god of some sort (and consequently, an afterlife of some sort), but my hats-off to them...  an open mind is a brave mind (and don't worry, i fully acknowledge that we can have open minds within the contexts of organized religions (some of my biggest heroes are Christians), but in my eyes any belief closes one's mind to an extent, by the very nature of belief... (believing that "x" is the answer negates the possibility of believing that "y" might be the answer)).....

haha I think I'm rather conservative but not THAT conservative. [and the comon jargon is "denomination"] I don't really ascribe to any one denomination but because of the degree of emphasis I place on evangalism I guess I would say Baptist if I had to, but denominations are really just believers choosing to agree to disagree on some non-essential aspects of religion such as pre-, post-, and mid-trib which is why I don't like to pick one because I think it's silly to argue about things we know we won't know till we're dead.

It's perfectly reasonable to believe that x is so to the point that you deny the possibility of y being so. You, I assume, are completely sure in your beliefe that the square root of 25 is 5, so much so that the notion that the square root of 25 is 57 is not even an option.

i'm not an "i'll believe it when i see it" type of guy;  i'm more of an "i'll believe it when i understand it type"...  one cannot always prove what one understands...  and unfortunately the realm of assumption is a dodgy and highly interpretive place...  as much as i loathe Descartes, i have no choice but to believe in that which i "perceive clearly and distinctly"...  what's the alternative?  i'm always open to the possibility of distrusting my senses, but i don't do so automatically, without reason...  if something useful could be extrapolated from the possibility of the square of 25 being 57, i'd probably get around to examining such a possibility (though numbers aren't my thing at all)...   Do you deny the possibility that god's real name is Allah (and that Muhammed is his sole prophet etc etc)?  I deny many possibilities, but as much out of necessity (due to time constraints) as any conscious prejudice or self-righteousness...  I am not set in my ways because my ways are always changing...  i find it helps not to have much in the way of rigid ways anyhow...  Dynamism is the way of nature, so i try to stay dynamic as a homage to nature (and its creator) and the unknown...  Plus, it's sheer common sense to acknowledge that, as things currently stand, humanity hasn't got a clue...  we exude unsustainability, as much so as any virus in a petrie dish....   i experiment with my life, often going against the grain of things just to examine the effects of doing so...  i have seen the feeble grasp on reality possessed by most of our "highly successful" elders and have decided that such delusions would not sit well with me...  so basically i try to look beyond humanity for guidance, knowledge, whatever...  man isn't the measure of all things-- god knows what is...  peace   

 

 

Can you define what peace atcually is? I'm serious, no one here I can tell has ever felt real true peace, and I can bet no one can define it. Sure, look it up in the dictionary. But can you honestly describe REAL and actual peace? Isn't that what religion was intended for until people realized they wanted to know how things worked? Religion was to set their mind at ease about the unknown.

peace on earth is a tough thing to imagine...  peace in a place where things must constantly kill and destroy in order to live and create?  maybe peace is a state in which destruction yields to creation, and everything is glad that everything else exists...  i think we have no choice but to try to bring about some sort of widespread peace on earth, and yes, religions tend to imply that such a thing is impossible, and that the only true peace out there is the peace of heaven...  this can placate people and distract them into spending their time adhering to arbitrary man-made doctrines and customs, as opposed to truly trying to bring about peace on earth...  religions are static...  nature is dynamic...  we could easily exist without religions...  we could never exist without nature...  i think the key to peace lies in finding a way to live sustainably within nature...  we should not be consuming so much of what we cannot re-create and do not understand...  we should realize that the best and only way to truly end a conflict is by learning to love your enemy...  if war was relegated to the past we could focus our efforts on truly worthwhile things...  sorry, this blurb is probably nothing new...  i guess peace is just the reverence for everything in the universe by everything in the universe...  acceptance, equity, respect, objectivity, making our consumption count, leaving a sustainable legacy...  clear as night?  i don't know whether or not any humans deserve to feel true peace down here, i don't think we've earned it yet-- it's all or no-one, i say.  time's a wasting...  someone had better figure this shit out, pronto...  if we didn't spend so much money on murder weapons maybe we could afford to dedicate some time and effort towards answering such questions...  sounds like a catch-22 to me.  peace 

I absolutely love how every self admitting know-nothing fool then claims to know so much- it gives me this warm fuzzy feeling inside that I quite frankly don't understand. I had a debate coach claim once that he was going to teach me to convince people that they were idiots and love me for it. His claim was grossly exaggerated to say the least.

I think every atheistic intellectual harbors a hope that religion will evolve out of people but personally I see it as impossible from both by theistic point of view and even from a natural humanistic perspective. Personally I think The Creator made us for the soul purpose of a relationship with Him giving us a desire to willfully seek His Truth and I think being what we are we F things up a lot in the process. There’s something in natural man that wants so much to believe that there’s something bigger and better out there than himself and even if there wasn’t there would always be someone out there scummy enough to convince a bunch of people stupid enough that he has all the answers.

I don’t think that all religion is an escape from the unknown, at least not if one takes it from the faith seeking understanding angle. I’ll be the first to admit that there are some stupid religious people out there [yes even within my own faith] who blindly enter in for all the wrong reasons or seemingly no reason at all. However, that’s not to say that no member of an organized religion can be rational, logical, or intelligent. I am increasingly aware that that there are things that I can’t find an answer to and my faith doesn’t make that go away or hide the fact; it does, however assure me that whatever the answer is it’s how it’s meant to be and perhaps I’ll be clued in one day in eternity.

I wish you were in my philosophy of religion class. Though conversation is intriguing it would be nice to have a little more live input from the opposition.  

hmmm, you are a tough one to peg down, so i won't bother trying to for the time being...  classifying people is an insult to god anyhow (and dependent upon our inept assumptions)...  instead i'll get back to you point for point...  please don't take offence to my seemingly scathing criticisms (on religion-- i rarely attack/criticise individuals, generally just ideas and principles), i am not at all an arrogant or prideful person...  but i take it you've come to that conclusion already...  so, on with it...

 

people, all of us, are in fact, by definition, pretty idiotic (the original meaning of "idiot" was someone who didn't participate in their democracy by letting their opinions be known)...  individual/relative intelligence really doesn't matter much to me...  all that matters is our cumulative wherewithal and our ability to build something truly sustainable/harmonious with this world...  i advertise the fact that i'm a fool a) because i am and i'm not afraid to admit it, b) to assure people that my opinions are just as immersed in our foolish perceptions as everybody else's, c) to make people consider in what respect they might be fools...  fools can be eloquent, fools can be charming, fools can be anything that anyone can be...  we can fall in love with fools, loathe fools, idolize fools, whatever...  we all do foolish things, and believe foolish things, now and again...

 

i agree with your point about willfully seeking His truth...  that is what i consider myself to be doing, and what i don't consider most religious people to be doing...  i am using what god gave me to seek The truth...  i'm not using what god gave JC or muhammed or buddha (well, maybe a bit of what he gave buddha)...  what positive aspects of christianity do you think would not exist without it?  my friends always tell me that christianity is littered with bits of moral wisdom that its followers could not find without it...  i disagree...  as far as i can tell (i've read the bible, but never been to church (amen)) the positive aspects of christianity amount to nothing more than logic/common sense...  jesus did not invent the golden rule, just as he didn't invent common courtesy/compassion...  logic lives without the aid of self-proclaimed prophets...  every religion has its positive aspects, otherwise they would never have caught on...  but do their positives outweigh their negatives??  are people good because of their religions, or in spite of them (because it's simply in their nature to be good)?

 

i like the fact that you know someone who professes to know The answers is most likely full of (sh)it...  so what trip do you think JC was on?  all i want to convince people of is the fact that we don't have the answers...  and it is always easier to discern what isn't the answer than what is (eg:  if i asked you what 232 x 47 equals, you probably wouldn't be able to tell me right away, but you would be able to tell me that the answer is NOT  22, or 9, or 48, dig? (in the same regard, i say that religion is bunk...  to me such a conviction is as unavoidable as knowing that 232 x 47 is not 22))...  

 

what is the most profound lesson christianity has taught you?  do you think you could've learnt it without christianity?  and what does christianity prevent you from learning?  i LOVE people, life, the creator's creation, that's why i hate religion...  it fuels our fires...  it emboldens the humble...  it offers seekers like us premature destinations, and leaves our minds in a state of static purgatory...  oh, and one more thing i have to ask...  do you believe in evolution?  if you don't, don't worry, i will not argue such viewpoints, i am just curious...

 

it sounds to me like you could provide your religion class with the opposition it is lacking...  all it takes is asking some simple questions...  they'd probably crucify me anyhow...  keep thinking, i look forward to your responses to my humble queries...  peace  

 

 

“logic lives without the aid of self-proclaimed prophets” This clued me in that  you and I have a fundamental definition discrepancy ☺ . Who was Jesus? I know him to be the second member of the trinity, the Word made flesh, fully God fully man for His purpose to save His children from their own shortcomings. I look at John 1:1 in the Greek I see it call Jesus the “logos” commonly translated simply as the “word” but it equally means “logic” “reason” “motive” so I’d have to say that no, logic does not live without the aid of this prophet who is in fact The Logic. So then I wouldn’t think Jesus was on a trip he wasn’t claiming power and knowledge from his flesh but from his deity- that’s where His authority comes from and that’s why He’s not “just” a prophet.

Christianity is a complicated animal when compared to other “religions” It hardly fits the description when properly lived. I have fellowship with other believers and we are eternally connected in our sanctified state but my faith, my religion is between me and God. I don’t need a guru to introduce me to Him. In the instances in history where crimes against man were done “in the name of Christianity” it was the result of fallen men who were outside of the will of God not the result of some flaw in the “religion” because the “religion” is the relationship with Christ. So there’s no weighing of positive and negative “results of Christianity” because that which might be placed in the negative category isn’t actually a result of true Christianity it’s a result of fallen man screwing up yet again taking Gods Truth and twisting it to fit his own selfish desires.

When you say “What positive aspects of Christianity do you think would not exist without it” do you mean what positive aspects of Christianity do I think would exist without the organized religion? Because there’s nothing important that comes from the institution of Christianity that God would not make available to me were I isolated from all other believers. See it’s not the Ten Commandments, the golden rule, or even the bible itself that saves me, it’s the knowledge of the saving power of Jesus Christ that’s crucial and no mere man or action of my own is necessary to become aware of that and to accept it. All that’s needed is a willing heart open to God. The rest is gravey

As though it weren’t obvious by now, the most profound thing  I’ve learned through becoming a Christian [follower of Christ] is that I can’t save me- I need God. This life never has been about me; the reason I have this life is to glorify Him through everything I do. I know that sounds a little preachy but it’s true none the less. And yes, I think I could have learned it without the church, without the bible, without the offering plate, but not without the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I don’t think my faith stops me from learning anything but I think the biases I form based on my world view tends to make me unsympathetic and then “close minded” to a new persons slant on things. I’m aware of it and try to keep it under control because it can hinder my overall goal of being an ambassador for the Lord.  

On evolution: I always have to laugh when I go into what I think on this topic because my reasoned faith is somewhat of a new endeavor. I had, as a child, a tendency to come up with theories to solve discrepancies in my beliefs and think I was the first to come up with it. When I was in high school I “came up with” Theistic Evolution only to learn a few years later that the theory was about as old as the theory of Evolution. But at this point I believe in a young Earth [5,000 years or so] and micro-evolution [God created the kinds of animals we see now within the 7days]. I think a person would have to be dense not to admit that there are changes within a species over generations which could possibly make them more adaptive to their environment but there’s no persuasive evidence that anyone has shown me that leads me to think that macro-evolution ever occurred [amphibian becoming mammal etc] Then there’s just the sheer probability of life coming from non-life, generation of beneficial mutations etc etc that just seems insurmountable to me.

Here’s a question for you, how do you view Gods relation to time? Is he bound by time, outside of time, both, something completely different? I am yet undecided on my position and I’m poling the masses.

if all ambassadors to the Lord were as thoughtful as you, His creation would be in a much better state (see? you've even got me capitalizing His name (and calling it "Him")...  that is me respecting your respect for Him, because i feel it's coming from, essentially, the right place...  if that makes any sense)...  I've heard similar definitions of JC before, but i just can't believe that he was any more divine than you or I...  I don't believe he ever thought or felt anything that you or i or anyone couldn't think or feel...  and frankly, i think you and i and everyone else are as saturated with divinity as we can get...  we are each as much the children of God as anybody ever has been, or could be...  so yeah, we've got a much different take on Jesus...  I see him as just a man...  I'm inclined to believe he was pretty good as far as men go (mostly because of the devotion he inspired amongst his disciples), but I am also willing to believe that he was just a simple hippy, or even some petty (though wildly successful) con-man or magician...  So, I see Jesus as just a person in a world of people;  one who lived, breathed, and shat alongside the rest of us...  Sure, he left an indelible mark on the world, but so did Jimi Hendrix...  Lots of people do...  For good or ill...

 

One thing I try not to do while pondering the nature of God is applying human attributes to Him...  To think that the mind or whatever of such a one as THAT could be circumscribed by fickle human emotions is impossible for me...  But your question about God's relationship with time is a bloody good one, and one which I've often considered...  Is God subject to time?  Does God learn as we learn?  Does God grow/evolve, or is God unchanging?  Can we surprise god?  Does god know/dictate our fates (and if so, how could we possibly upset it?)?   

 

i think that, in some nearly insignificant regard, we are all a part of god...  sorry, God...  and if i had to guess i'd say that God is not subject to time (except insofar as we subject Him to time...)...  Perhaps He created the universe to analyze his component parts (us/life)...  maybe the big bang was some immortal god exploding and the story of the universe thereafter is the story of him trying to put himself back together again...  everything in nature seems to be inclined to unite with other things (from an atomic scale on up...), this leads me to believe that god's vision for our universe is one of unity, uncompromising symbiosis...  (getting abstract/obscure enough for you?)

 

uh...  I've also always had the inescapable conviction that everything i do/think/whatever, is being "recorded" by something for some reason...  that everything is a test of sorts...  i once viewed god as some kind of incomprehensibly massive main-frame computer to which we are all connected...  an unbiased, unjudging learning machine-being of a sort, that records every thought emotion etc in the universe...  hence every time a pig is slaughtered, god gets slaughtered...  every time someone is victimized, god is victimized...  every time someone laughs, god laughs...  etc etc...   in that way god is the summation of all experience/existence in the universe...  is He more than that?  i dunno, one would imagine He is i suppose (i'm not sure what good any such imaginings would do however)...  unless he truly gave his all to creation... 

 

to me, god is life, at the very least...  it could be more...  but when we view it in strictly human terms aren't we trivializing it?  how well could you get to know an artist if you've only seen some of their work and never actually met them?  you could deduce some general things about them, sure, but who are you/we to say what motivated them?  i believe that God is good, because He would not waste His time (ha!) on being anything else...  It is frustrating to think of anything existing, thinking, outside of the realm of time...  the fourth dimension...  but if anyone can do it, God can...  i suppose i'd say time is one of God's creations...  and that He exists outside of it AND within it (is that the cop-out answer?)  Maybe He has spread himself too thin...  But He probably does everything on purpose, that's for damn sure...

 

The silliest and most insulting notion within Christianity to me, is the notion of hell and the devil.  I am a true believer that "everything is permitted" by God, and that the only thing that could possibly be construed as punishment in the afterlife would be one's own regret at not having done more in the service of the greater good...  That is not to say that i believe everything is acceptable or right, quite the opposite, but i believe in doing the right thing simply for the sake of doing the right thing-- because it's logical, not for pie in the sky when i die...  Such a concept is known as Dharma, I think (I too used to think i invented all kinds of concepts until I became moderately well-read)... 

 

So what's your take on hell/satan?  Would ANY good God tolerate such bollocks?  If I, as a petty, puny, human, can see the pointlessness and injustice in the existence of such a place, surely God would see it too?  But am I circumscribing God in the realm of human emotion to suit my convenience in this case?  It's just that I could never believe in an omnipotent God who exists alongside hell...   Sure, life is full of paradoxes, but I'm sure God has reasonable explanations for all of them...  He'd better...                                

How have you come to terms with the supposed existence of hell?  What would God (or anyone else) gain by sending anyone's soul there for eternity?  Oh, and one last very important question for you:  do you fear God?  I fear FOR God, because I love the Dude, and all Its creations and manifestations, but It would be the last thing in the universe I'd be afraid of...  To me, THAT is true faith....  And my faith in God's good intent is the only faith I'll ever need...  And I think if everyone agreed upon the simple and solitary fact that God is good (out of necessity if not reason...) and left it at that, God would truly rejoice.

 

thanks for the keen conversating...  I thought I'd exhausted my will to engage in theological discourse...  but I love it when people prove me wrong...  sorry for rambling...  c'est la vie...  peace      

  

Haha I’d like to mention that I don’t refer to God as Him because I think he has a dick- I refer to Him as Him because language fails to give a word like he/she that describes a genderless individual. “He” is my preference incidentally really because of the way God is referred to in the bible as a father figure, which was done I believe to help people understand one aspect of Gods relation to them. He is referred to sometimes in a female sense when that would aid the listener in understanding but I think it’s one of those things that we use to describe God that sometimes gets mistaken as a definition for God. I don’t think it’s rational for anyone to revere Jesus as a teacher, prophet, or wise man without buying into his divinity. Stealing CS Lewis’ reasoning the person known as Jesus was either a liar, lunatic, or Lord he couldn’t of been anything else. He said he was God man- flat out “He who has seen me has seen the father” He either lied in which case why would I want anything to do with him or he was out of his mind and can’t be faulted for his false claim or he was telling the truth and he was in fact God. So if you don’t think he’s divine then please don’t pretend to think he was wise because he was the biggest liar or the biggest nut of his time. The miraculous thing though is that he did live, breath, eat, get sick, get hurt, and even die like the rest of us- that was the whole point. He was subjected to every pain, every discomfort, every temptation we are as humans in a human form and he emerged sinless he didn’t call on his divine nature to eliminate these trials [though he did call on his Father in Heaven for strength etc just as we can] he persevered through them in a way that is accessible to any one of us. “I’ve also always had the inescapable conviction that everything I do/think/whatever, is being “recorded” by something for some reason… that everything is a test of sorts” Hahaha that reminded me of that part in The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy when Slartibartfast was telling Arthur about the whole Earth experiment thing and Arthur’s like yeah I always sort of felt watched and Startibartfast was like no, that’s just common paranoia everyone in the universe gets that. If you have no idea what I’m referring to you should go rent the movie or read the books it takes a hilariously cynical look at well, life the universe and everything [and don’t worry it’s not an evangelical thing it’s rather agnostic]. You know, I hate to be the one to break it to you but you probably feel that way because you are, always watched that is. God knows everything you did, are doing, and will do [which isn’t to say you don’t have free will which is a whole other ridiculously long conversation]. It’s all recorded- the things you did right, the things you did wrong haha kinda depressing until you learn that He’s willing to throw that whole record out when you come to Him. It’s such a reliefe, He still watches me and knows when I do good and do ill but He’s no longer tagging it onto my rap sheet. I don’t think his existence within and outside of time is a cop out at all, I think actually that’s as near of a conclusion as I can reach. I don’t think we can know ALL of God and his nature because of the whole finite/infinite thing but we can know some, intuit some, and speculate about the rest. Satan and hell aren’t silly at all I don’t think. It’s not unjust either. Here’s something I recently learned. Every person ever created has the chance, the point or points in there life where they can choose to follow God or choose to shun Him. They may shun him by denying He exists, they may admit he exists but deny he has any authority over them, they may deny he is worth being worshiped. In this way though you either choose to be with God or against Him. If you chose to be against him you can’t be with Him in the afterlife so what happens to you? Satan knew God but he decided that God was not as high and mighty as He showed himself to be and he wanted to be a god himself. He chose to go against God so God’s like fine go to hell. Hell, as my mother explained it to me when I was very little when I would ask these sorts of things, is the absence of the presence of God it’s where those who chose not to go with him are for eternity reflecting on the choice they made. I think [and this is all opinion right here] that when we die we inherit a sort of larger understanding of everything. I think we’ll be able to see the long reaching consequences of our actions and we’ll be able to see the events of our lives from an objective view not from the clowed perception we have now. The people in Hell experience [I think] all the choices they made, all the opportunities to turn they rejected, and I think they’ll understand what they are missing from Heaven. God doesn’t WANT anyone to go to Hell but he also doesn’t want to force us to love Him- what kind of love and worship would that be? So He gives us the choice Love Him or leave Him. The torture and miseries in Hell too, they aren’t the design of God. He didn’t sit around and say, “Hmn I think I’ll burn all the people who don’t submit to me.” He says something more like, “You can follow me and have everlasting life and rewards beyond what you can imagine or you can chose the pleasures of this world and hang out with Satan and his gang when you die.” Satan and his gang are the ones who torture you because they’re bitter and they want to take it out one someone but they won’t ever find relief. My current philosophical confusing with the existence of hell is this though [to be honest]. I believe God is Omnipresent. Before there was anything there was God, then god created “nothing” out of which he created the world and all this stuff of existence I and others experience. I believe he holds all of this together in a quite literal hands on sort of way. [we have the smalles unit of mater the atom but have you ever wondered what’s in between the electrons protons and neutrons? There’s space in there and it’s not air because air is made of atoms and you can’t put atoms in atoms- personally I think it’s a part of God in there.] Ok so holding this belief and the belief that hell is the absence of God that then means there’s someplace where God isn’t and if He isn’t there, how is it holding together? I haven’t resolved this yet and it may be one of those “when I die” sort of things but I thought I’d throw it out there. I do fear God but not in the “I think he’s going to hurt me” sort of way. It’s more like how I feared my parents to the nth degree. I knew my parents would die for me without thinking twice about it and yet when I did something I knew was wrong there was fear of their disapproval, their dissapointment and that sort of thing. I think there’s also an element of awesomeness that’s intimidating. I know that if I were to stand before God I would tremble with fear but not that he would hurt me but a fear of the knowledge that I am not worthy on my own. [aside the topic: on the whole ‘everyone has the chance to come to Christ thing, there have actually been people groups discovered in “unreached” areas of the world ie areas previously unvisteted by Christian missionaries, that have known about the God of the bible, and the sacrifice of His son for their salvation. They didn’t have a bible but they had an oral tradition of all the cruicial parts. How bizar would that be? You go to a group of people who have never encountered an outsider to tell them about some outside world information you didn’t even think they could know and their like, “Yeah, we know. Thanks anyway.” ]

sorry, I don't know why that came out as one big block- I hate that! Makes me dizzy. sorry.

your acceptance of hell sounds a little like bush's bold expostulation: "... you're either with us, or you're with the terrorists..."  you feel i'm either with god (within the context of christianity) or against him?  no way.  i feel there is no choice for anybody to make in this regard, there is no option...  we are ALL with god, period. Inextricably intertwined with the Big Guy for eternity...  No matter what we do on sundays, no matter who we believe, whatever path we take...  I feel awed by life at large, nature is the only "church" type thingy i will ever need... 

 

you say that someone who goes to hell  "reflects for eternity" and mulls over what god wanted them to do, but to me this is totally implausible because NO good could possibly come from their new-found enlightenment if they are relegated to hell for ETERNITY ( i don't know if hell's inmates are to be a part of the rapture or not (or if you believe in the rapture), but either way, its existence is totally inconceivable to me (el diablo must be really good at pulling the wool over my eyes, eh?))

 

 I've read Paradise Lost, Dante's Inferno, The Bible, Faust, The Koran, and I've heard the justifications for a one such as Satan, and I've always deduced that IF hell and satan did exist, and IF an omnipotent/omniscient/omnipresent/good God did exist, that aforementioned god wouldn't hesitate for a milisecond to waltz on over to hell, kick satan's ass, and emancipate hell's hopeless yet penitent inmates...  no god that i would ever consider worshipping (i really have no idea how i'd go about this "worshipping" business at all, other than intermittent gratitude...) or believing in would sit on his ass while our brothers and sisters rot in unending suffering etc...  not a chance.  does not compute...

 

and i couldn't help but come to the assumption that you feel that people like me, who deny the existence of hell/satan, do so out of a mixed sense of wishful-thinking and guilt.  i am pretty much immune to sinning in the christian context, but i don't feel that the christian measure for sins (10 commandments) is a particularly thorough/realistic one...  that is not to say i'm immune to guilt, but i feel guilty about doing things that most really don't think twice about (consuming/polluting the Earth, being a member of such a primitive and detrimental species, etc)...  i don't go around hurting/manipulating/lying to others because i'm not a total dumb-ass and realize such things are counter-productive...  it doesn't take a devoutly religious person to feel right and wrong, it just takes a person...  i'm quite sure i sin much less than most people you go to church with...  but it is not a competition.  my conscience tells me when i sin, not a book or a priest...  i really don't think the christian definition of sin is broad enough...  i'll bet that if moses had a pen and paper, he'd have elaborated a little more with his commandments...  and the confession thing seems a little too convenient, don't you think? 

 

btw, i'm glad to hear that it looks like you've been venturing into the unknown realm of quantum physics/string theory...  i put my faith in the eventual comprehension of life, the universe, and everything, in science (and, as always, a little intuition).  most string theorists estimate that there are at least eleven dimensions in our universe, four of which (time included) we can perceive...  and many leading scientists are realizing that science is becoming so sophisticated that it's beginning to tread on grounds formerly occupied exclusively by religion...  i think that if god has indeed written a gospel for the living to read, it is in science, which is merely the attempt to translate nature, to reveal nature's (and hence god's) secrets/mysteries...  a belief/faith in science does not at all negate a belief in god, in my books.

 

btw, i'm a big fan of the hitchhiker's guide (books and movie) and was totally on top of your quote...  i get a laugh out of that part too...  i was just telling a friend the other day how re-watchable that movie is to me for some reason... 

 

another thing about hell...  when i was younger i was quite a little buddhist (though i was oblivious to the existence of buddhism altogether)...  i never used to believe in evil, though i saw that good people could do evilish things...  to this day, i'm honestly not sure whether i believe in evil, or just humanity's capacity and inclination to do stupid things.  i used to equate evil solely to stupidity, realizing every action is a choice, and figuring that anyone who chooses to cause suffering to another when one could be causing that other to rejoice, is just being stupid.  if there are two things i believe about god, they are that god is good, and that god is NOT stupid.  in my eyes, hell would be a wholly stupid place, and satan would be a wholly stupid creation...  hence, they are truly unbelievable to me.  if anything rises above good/evil, ying/yang, dark/light, etc, it is god...  god doesn't need some evil, bizarro, counterpart, a nemesis (time's good enough for a nemesis, for now), an antagonist to make the story of his life more full...  god is.  god is above all opposites, above comparison, above evil... ("beyond good and evil"...  you should check out some Nietszche...)

 

please keep in mind that, while i may sound like i'm saying such things with an air of conviction, these are all just musings, just ideas, just the first things that fall into my consciousness, so please don't feel i'm saying such things with a "you're with me or against me" type of mentality, i just want whomever i'm speaking to to see the issues from my perspective...  i just try to provoke sincere musings with my own sincere musings... 

 

about that last bit and christ... i think that christ said/thought of many logical things that others who have never heard of him could also say/think of...  i think that he waded into the reflective waters of love and logic that many before him and after him have waded into...  i think he merely taught himself to tap what any human can tap-- common sense...  so in that sense i feel comfortable calling him a worthy role-model, just as i'd call confucius a role-model (who talked much like jc did 2500 years before jc came to be)...  i also have role-models that are entirely fictional ( in terms of fiction, i read mostly 19th century russian lit. (the king of which is Dostoevsky who was a somewhat devout christian))...  whatever, i'm obviously not going to make you see jc as i see him:  a guy who i'd really enjoy sitting down and smoking a big J with...  good people.  I'd bet if jc was around today he'd become a research scientist, probably a theorhetical quantum physicist, or something along those lines...  he'd be awed by science, that's for damn sure...                             

 

woah, i also feel guilty about rambling and wasting both our time...  just think about the god you believe in in your heart of hearts (whatever that means, exactly), and picture that god co-existing with satan and hell (i know you said hell was void of god, but god must still know it's there (that would also negate the possibility of god being omnipresent (if He wasn't in hell))...  and otherwise, just keep on keeping on and do the right thing, i guess...  peace 

Nature is a fabulous cathedral but a merciless lord I am afraid.

Your reason for the non existence of hell is a familiar one. However, I think most use it to justify their atheism. What do you do with evil [or the appearance of] and suffering then? You believe in a god but this god obviously allows pain, suffering, natural disasters, death and on and on, is your god not omnipotent/omniscient/omnipresent/omni-benevolent? Your god would save people from a theoretical hell but not from the pains of this life? From the stupidity of the others? How do you make that compute? If I didn’t believe in an eternal hell I would probably consider this current experience to be hell.

About sin, I’m afraid the definition of sin has exploded since the old testament Ten Commandments. It’s so broad even that scriptures tell us that “ anyone then who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins” Now that wasn’t in the big ten. To sin is to be outside the will of God, to put anything or anyone before Him, to deny His Truth. Oh and confession- not as simple and easy as the Catholics try and make it. You can’t just say, dude I screwed up. You have to admit that what you did was wrong and repent, that is, be sorry and desire never to make that mistake again. Haha and you can’t fool God He knows if you mean it or not.

I’m with you on the compatibility of God and science. I mean, He made it so I’m not worried that understanding nature will be a deathblow to his existence or anything. It really irks me when someone implies that they just can’t coexist. It also irks me when the scientists talk like they know everything when most of the time their theories get revised or disproved every couple of decades anyway.

good questions...  what do i attribute evil to?  people-- stupid people.  how do i reconcile myself to the often hell-like conditions of the earth?  i don't--  i leave that to whatever god may be, and in the meantime, i try to minimize my consumption/killing, and make my consumption count for something (in short, i listen to my conscience, and try to follow it)...  i really don't know whether humanity, as a whole, is good or bad...  we did evolve from viruses, after all-- in science's opinion (you have to admit, that would explain alot)...   when i die i expect god to justify this paradoxical universe to me...  it'd better have some good bloody reasons...  

 

what we have to ask ourselves is whether or not universal harmony (if you have any other assumptions as to the nature of god's perfect plan, let me know...) would justify all the bollocks/suffering of all time...  would it?  i'd say that it might, though it is as unimaginable as the cumulative suffering that has taken place on our humble little planet alone...  (do you believe that there is most likely life on other planets?)  do god's ends justify its means?  it's hard to disagree with one's creator, but luckily it comes naturally to we insolent creatures...

 

ever heard of gnosticism?  we've been dancing around some of its most fundamental ideas here...  i feel that if there is a hellish place anywhere, this must surely be it...  i cannot envision existence being any more savage than it is here...  have you ever considered that our universe might be an accident (i know, pretty elaborate for an accident)?  or that our creator might have more in common with satan than with TETRAGRAMMATRON?  or that we might all be guinea pigs of a sort in a universally-scaled experiment?  do you ever ask yourself shite like:  IF the big bang did spawn the universe, what could have blah blah blah...?  do you ever assume, for the sake of argument, that science has what it does have right?  science, to me, is as primitive as our so-called "civilizations"...  it is as rudimentary as our current cognitive capabilities, but, as i see it, it is on the right path, the only path we can take as evolving beings...  does the bible say how to curb climate change, or how to cure cancer, or how to get a human to the moon, or how to create a symbiotic relationship with Nature?  science has the POTENTIAL to answer all of our questions and solve most of our problems...  what progress has been made since the advent of organized religions?  what is the legacy of the world's religions?  they began in times of war and suffering and they have proven to be inept at ending the suffering/fundamental problems inherent in our "civilizations"...  religions stifle most progress, as far as i can tell 

 

"He knows if you mean it or not"...  so, you're saying that being a christian doesn't negate the possibility of one going to hell?  you think god has a faithometer with which he pokes and prods the populace?  then why wouldn't he recognize the sincerity in the faith of any non-practitioner of christianity?  you obviously realize that some non-christians are good people, so what exactly would stop god from realizing that?  what more needs to be realized, really?  would you be willing to exist in a world living in true peace and harmony (no war, everyone's a vegan, everyone follows the golden rule, etc), but void of organized religion?  i think god would...  i think that's what he's gunning at

 

assumptions-- the stuff of faith and of science...  sure, assumptions/theories can be wrong, but religions worm their way out of the possibility of being wrong by making a wide array of claims that we have no way to prove or disprove...  imagine you met a dude from, say, Bangladesh, who said that his father was 9'11" tall...  you'd have no way to disprove him, as you're not going to go all the way there just to verify his claim, but your common sense would tell you that his claim is highly improbable...  that's how i feel about organized religions and books like the bible...  and that's how you feel about theories (it kind of pains me to call it that) like evolution (i say that rocks don't lie)...  it's not as if we ca go back in time 4 million years to see this supposed dawn of humanity...  

 

so, do you think that science is a type of faith derived from the study of nature, whereas religion is a type of faith derived from the study of humans (and/or demi-gods/prophets and whatnot)?  i just can't find any godly wisdom in any religion, there is nothing in them that hasn't been said and felt by humans for time immemorial...  to me the godly wisdom lies, if anywhere, in nature, in the fabric of space/time and whatnot, not in the fortune-cookie-like tidbits of profundity that our holy books try to convince us is more than mere common sense and common courtesy... 

 

sorry, i always mean to keep it short and sweet, but i'm my own devil's advocate...  hope i managed to, uh, titillate your cognitive capabilities and whatnot...  that's my only aim (that and the truth)...  please don't take offence if i've been a bit of a prick this time around, but i try to treat everyone the same (as i try to revere everyone equally) and i guess, perhaps due to the constraints of time, that i try to emulate the ruthlessness of the god i perceive (in a roudabout way) to be at work/play behind the scenes...  and if you do/did take offence, just consider the source...  peace out      

The fool has said in his own heart, there is no god...

JAH RASTAFARI!  thanks for quoting the great Bob, brethren...  I never said that i didn't believe in god...  in fact i constantly reiterate the fact that i do BELIEVE in god...  just not your god (who was once known as Zeus, btw)...  and i sure as hell don't pretend that my subjective opinions on the be-all and end-all are facts...  if you want my opinion, i think you're too afraid to admit you don't have the answers, so you hide behind some arbitrary religion and engage in a life of intellectual sloth...  be brave and be humble 

I don't really think there's much to add to what you said.  I was like a bobble-head doll reading it..."yep, yep, yep".  If you've been at least making the effort to evolve, then you'll feel the way that you do - that there's nearly nothing left to say that hasn't already been exhausted by now.  And yet it still infuriates.  In my mind, it's summed up pretty simply: Religion is nothing more than a feeble attempt to explain the sometimes-unexplainable, and a crutch for the lesser-evolved that can't overcome an innate fear of the unknown.  I know that remark right there will get me flamed to hell and back, but that's how I see it.  The whole basis of natural selection, "the strongest prevail", explains a lot of it as well.  Those species that continue to survive, thrive, and carry on were not able to do so because they lived in perpetual fear.  Or at least if they did, they had to learn to conquer and harness that potentially-negative energy into something productive to survive.  They had that instinct, that inherent push to LIVE.  Those that froze in their fear, or felt helpless to alter their existence, died off or got left behind to perish.  It will always happen that way, and contimues to today.  Scientists and those humans prone to actually wanting to think for themselves, to want more than a simple pat answer to the great "how's" and "why's" - those are the ones that didn't and haven't let irrational fears hold them back.  They want answers, real answers, or at least an acknowledgement that for some things, there just may never BE answers.  I myself am content with realizing that I am never going to know even a tenth of what's out there, but as long as I keep studying, reading, absorbing, learning, growing - that's the most important thing.  That is my job as a socially-responsible human being.  Religions attempts to explain every minute quirk, every awe-inspiring event, in one form or another, and it's used as a salve for weakness.  The one thing I have always found most amazing, perhaps, is that in our day and age, you are called a fool for believing everything another person tells you without seeing or verifying it for yourself.  And yet to believe in some invisible entity, based upon generations of hearsay and story-telling, is considered completely unremarkable.  HELLO!  But probably much as many of us see any form of organized religion as a negative energy siphoning too much of the human experience, which takes away from progress, those that ascribe to organized religion will attempt to parlay any criticism of their beliefs into an all-inclusive package for a date with the devil for those same detractors when all is said and done.  Or they feel sorry for you, because you haven't "got what they've got".  So I guess we'll all just feel sorry for each other, and think what we will, but I agree with your blog entry entirely, not that that much matters.  I sound like Eeyore.  See?!  Even talking about it is a downer!  ;-)

I should add to that whole spiel, that although my personal feelings are so strong, it doesn't hurt to keep the open mind, nonetheless.  I'm more of the type, "When it makes sense to me, real sense, then I'll reconsider my views".  That can't be emphasized enough.  I was raised in a strict Christian home, and I couldn't even begin to argue with someone rationally anymore, because I've already "been there, done that", got the t-shirt, so to speak.  I  hate arguing about religion for the sake of arguing, because I've seen what happens.  I have had those conversations with very sincere Christians, and the best one I ever had was one in which this other individual said, "I don't have all of the answers to your questions, and they're very reasonable questions.  I can't tell you what sways some people and not others.  I can only share with you my experience, but that isn't going to help you any.  It's different for each person, and who's to say that we aren't all worshipping the same God, only our individual idea of God?  We're so spread out across the map, and the cultures are so varied, that we couldn't possibly all have the same mental image in mind".  That stuck with me, but it didn't, of course, change my mind.  I don't mean to sound hostile, I just think I had more than enough of it growing up, and when I attempted to revisit it as an adult, it made less and less sense.  You have to respect the fact that no two people think or feel exactly alike, but as I've said in my own blog - I don't care who or what you worship, as long as you're happy.  Just don't beat me about the head with it, don't kill people in the name of it, and don't tell me I have no moral compass because I'm not you.  I'm fine and at-peace with who I am and the direction I continue to go, and I hope that for everyone else, too.  A tall order, but it's just kind of, "Can't we just get along already"?  Now I sound like a 12 year-old at a birthday party.  Sheesh.

one species, one world, one time, one god, one religion, one mind...  i've been on a big oneness kick lately...  maybe all perceived differences are immaterial and blown out of proportion...  we should  seek out commonalities with uncommon nouns, i think there are more of them than differences...  what do all religions have in common?  what do all people have in common?  what do all ideas have in common?  consciousness?  what's that?  i think that the things that are most fundamental, the things we all have in common, are the hardest things to define, or circumscribe with our petty perceptions...  so we create and focus on differences because, surprise, surprise, it's easier than the alterenative...  most of our "comprehension" is comparative...  we can discern that green is different from blue, but cannot describe how they differ without comparing them to other incomparable things...  what i seek the most is knowledge that transcends all comparison, knowledge that is absolute, or whatever...  when we define things by what they are NOT, it can really only tell us so much about what, in fact, they ARE...

i don't feel i'm at all unique in these half-assed, intermittent convictions...  we're all spiritual, we're all seekers, we're all trying to evolve (though most often in a roudabout way)...  it's just that we're all highly susceptible to delusion and dependent upon assumptions and that frustrates the hell out of me/us...  not enough to send me running into organized religion, but i dig why people are drawn towards it (though i really can't grasp how some can suspend their disbelief for so long)...  sheesh indeed...

wow.  you are a formidable communicator...  i am tired and hungry and a little shaken...  and, as always when i come across a true seeker, humbled...  i can't keep pace right now, maybe me brain's gone a bit soft, but i'll respond to this one and the rest asap...  you are a force...  THANK-YOU for your willingness to converse...  i try to tell people that's what the internet was made for...  peace out for now...  keep em guessing!