I did a funeral for an infant on Saturday morning.  It’s strange.  I don’t know the family, and knew nothing about the premature baby’s intestinal troubles or death when it happened.  However, I found myself fighting back tears a couple of times.  I think I’ve become an old softie.


            I told the gathered crowd that there were no quaint, religious phrases that would explain what happened.  We just don’t understand.


            What we do know, however, is that there actually are what we have come to call guardian angels, because Jesus told us so—children have angels that behold the Father’s face in heaven.  Somehow—and I admitted I didn't understand what it means or “looks like”—this little girl had and has an angel watching over her.


            The other thing I told them is that we know, at least those who believe in Jesus and His resurrection, that we will see this child some day in heaven.  Again, I told them that I was unsure in what manner we will see her—just that we will.


            The third thing I know is that He will comfort us in our grief.  He is the Comforter.


            In spite of the fact that we earth dwellers think we’re amazingly intelligent, we know very little of this life.  However, we know One who knows it all.  And this One is good and is love, through and through.  We can trust Him, even when we don’t understand.

 

 
   

 


 
 
velvetdreams on
Re: A Funeral For An Infant
Thankfully, yes!  This applies not just to horribly sad events like the one you mentioned, but to all the "mysteries" of our daily life!  He IS Faithful & True!
breadcrumbs on
Re: A Funeral For An Infant
Yes. We can come as a little child. Trusting.
christianisrael on
Re: A Funeral For An Infant
Hi, Ron!
misterskank on
Re: A Funeral For An Infant
Ah, guardian angels, right, wouldn't that be nice? Never been any evidence of them, though, no matter how much we wish they existed, and that truth evokes tears. In the paper this morning I read of a toddler who suffocated in an abandoned microwave oven as he played hide and seek with his sister.
christianisrael on
Re: A Funeral For An Infant
Why do you care, misterskank, about what became of this toddler? 
misterskank on
Re: A Funeral For An Infant
Why do you ask?
christianisrael on
Re: A Funeral For An Infant
I ask because I'm trying to understand you and your belief system.
misterskank on
Re: A Funeral For An Infant
It's whatever Krishna, Buddha, Purna, Mahavira, Lao Tsu, Socrates, Plato, Patanjali, Jesus, Joyce, Gandhi, Einstein, Krishnamurti, Russell, Muste, and King have in common.
christianisrael on
Re: A Funeral For An Infant
Hm.  Well, I don't see the author of Thus Spake Zarathustra. Nor do I see Sartre, Camus, or... Darwin.
Do you hold to the theory of macro-evolution?
misterskank on
Re: A Funeral For An Infant
Nonviolence is as close as I come to dogma of any kind, and though it comes close even it is not absolute. My wife sometimes calls herself a pacifist atheist who prefers her nonviolence uncontaminated by religion, and I sometimes borrow her line. As Bertrand Russell and others have pointed out, people of all religions—hindu, buddhist, jew, christian, moslem, jain, taoist, shaman—and of no religion, too— like Einstein, Russell, Hubble, Krishnamurti—have had religious experiences just like yours and have described them. They are just as certain as you, just as devoted, just as convinced, just as dedicated, just as sure that their experience is the true one, the real one, the only one. Their remarks all follow the same formula; one need only plug in the variant brand name, the variant deity or ideology. Russell (and I and others like him) is more interested in the generic archetype than in the brand names the awed experiencers inevitably promote. They confuse the message with the messenger, the teaching with the teacher, the way with the system of belief. Their sincerity, like yours, is not in question. But their eminently understandable misunderstandings of their mystic experiences foster division and suspicion. Selflessness, peace, honesty, compassion, generosity, kindness, mercy, love—if they would simply promulgate and foster this message there would be real hope for our suffering human family but, no, each must package and wrap the message in their own special box, ribbon, and bow, and attach their card: "My way, this way, the only way!" In its tiny little way, your username is the problem in a nutshell.  
christianisrael on
Re: A Funeral For An Infant

Clearly, there is no way that I can convince you at this point that I haven’t misunderstood my mystical experiences.  Anything I say will simply contribute to your perception that I continue to misunderstand them.  Thus, we’re traveling in a circle. 

However, misterskank, you really should remove Jesus from your list of avatars. As C. S. Lewis said, "A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic—on the level with a man who says he is a poached egg—or he would be the devil of hell. You must take your choice. Either this was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us.”

 

misterskank on
Re: A Funeral For An Infant
It's guaranteed that in any discussion with a christian he will trot out the same old tired quotation from C.S. Lewis in order to denigrate the other party's argument as "patronizing nonsense" rather than concede that "son of god" must be interpreted since not even christians claim that the words "son" and "father" in the christian formulation mean what they do in plain English. Is the son's "father"-god male? What does the word "male" mean when applied to god? Does this god have genitals—testicles, a penis? If so, why? What for? What specific remark of Jesus, pray tell, would make him a lunatic or madman or fool or devil of hell? Silliness, sad sad silliness all— It's sickening, really, and no wonder that moslems are killing themselves and others to resist the armies of christian commanders who share the arrogance of Lewis and you. 
christianisrael on
Re: A Funeral For An Infant

            Mr. Lewis—whom you insult, by calling him arrogant—in your non-hateful way, of course—has the advantage of having been on both sides of this issue, an advantage which you do not share.  He once was an atheist, who, through intelligent investigation, discovered that Jesus is, yes, believe it or not, God Himself.

            As to which specific remark Jesus made that should force a decision of whether He is a lunatic, a liar or the Lord, there are several.  Here are two.  In the first, from John 8, Jesus is talking to the Jewish religious leaders.

            “‘Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.’

            So the Jews said to Him, ‘You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?’

            Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.’”

            By saying He was “I am,” He was saying that He is the One who spoke to Moses from the burning bush, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob—literally, the ‘yod hey vav hey,’” the Hebrew letters that we have transliterated into “Yahweh” or “Jehovah.”  

            This is another, from Luke 5.

            “Seeing their faith, He said, ‘Friend, your sins are forgiven you.’

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this man who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?”

But Jesus, aware of their reasonings, answered and said to them, ‘Why are you reasoning in your hearts?  Which is easier, to say, “‘Your sins have been forgiven you,’” or to say, “‘Get up and walk’”? But, so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,’—He said to the paralytic—‘I say to you, get up, and pick up your stretcher and go home.’ Immediately he got up before them, and picked up what he had been lying on, and went home glorifying God.”

            Here, Jesus is claiming to be able to do what the Jews believed that only God can do—forgive someone’s sins—not sins this man had committed against Him, but sin in general.

           

            Concerning your question as to whether God my Father has testicles or a penis, by attempting to strain out a gnat, you are swallowing a camel.

misterskank on
Re: A Funeral For An Infant
No, again you must put your own words in the mouth of Jesus in order to support your claim. "By saying...he was saying...." and "Here, Jesus is claiming...." As for the gender of god, god either has gender or god does not. You, I gather, believe that god is male. I do not believe god has gender.
christianisrael on
Re: A Funeral For An Infant
The reason I said Jesus is claiming to be the same voice as the One who spoke from the burning bush is because He used the same expression that God used when He spoke to Moses in the bush.  This is not an attempt to put words in His mouth--this is simply using one's mind to study the Bible. I don't know what other conclusion one could come to--"Before Abraham was, I am."  The name of God, right there.
As for putting words into Jesus' mouth about forgiveness being the province of God, there is no need to so, since the Pharisees tell us what He meant--He was claiming to be God.
"The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, 'Who is this man who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?'"
misterskank on
Re: A Funeral For An Infant
I'm sure you can see that you're still stretching the text in the effort to support your prejudice. Any number of substitutions for "I" other than "God" make just as much and—to many better—sense than the inference you insist is the only one possible. "Before Abraham was, I—or Peace, Love, Mercy, Kindness, Nonviolence, Law, Justice, Mercy, Forgiveness, etc.—am." But your tone of exasperation and condescension taints so many of your remarks, "this is simply using one's mind to study" being the most recent. But there's no need to apologize for your tone—though I thank you for the generous spirit of your apology. In debate of this kind it is considered acceptable to criticize the language and tone of an opponent's argument, as Lewis did himself in his use of "condescending nonsense" and more. I am sure that in your calmer, more reflective moments you understand the tendentiousness of Lewis's positing a false dichotomy—"God or lunatic"—in the text in question. A billion and more Jews, Moslems, and freethinkers believe otherwise. Why dismiss their views and the views of Russell, Einstein, Gandhi, etc., as condescending nonsense? Which is the easier argument to understand, the Moslem argument that there is only one god or the Christian "mystery" of three gods in one? It is fair, is it not, to point at this "arrogance" in your "renowned scholar"? As for your second point, I find it amusing that you cite the Pharisees [!] as support for your argument. That must be some kind of first in Christian exegesis! At any rate, to infer from their rhetorical questions that Jesus is God is an even bigger stretch. Clearly, you—just as others have for centuries—struggle to cite text in which Jesus says unequivocally, "I am God." If he thought he was God, why would he be reluctant unequivocally to say so? Is it so farfetched to believe that he meant that he brought a message from god, that he felt he was a child of god? The Jews and the Moslems and even many freethinkers like me accept Jesus as a teacher of god, a prophet of god, a messenger of god, a child of god, and it is only the Christians who demand that, no, he is God, period. It's all so silly and so unnecessary and tragic. To people like me, the demand seems a transparent  projection of human ego, the desire to posit the dualism of right and wrong, true and false, good and evil, and to take vicarious pleasure in the belief that one's enemies will be tortured forever in hell and one's friends rewarded forever in heaven. Besides, it doesn't matter to me one whit whether Jesus is "God" or a messenger of "god." If anyone deserves to be a god and to be immortal, it is certainly Jesus. But my point in our exchange has been that his main teaching is not that he believed we should all admit that he is God and praise the name of Jesus and that anyone who does not share those beliefs is damned to hell but that we should stop killing one another and be loving and kind. Thanks again for you apology, totally unneeded though it was. I forgive you for everything you write in these meetings of mind the minute I read them. I try to be quick to apologize, quick to forgive, and I see that you do, too. People like me believe in a unified field theory of metaphysics, just as Einstein believed in a unified field theory of physics, and think that an unflagging exploration of the possibility is the only salvation for our species. Yes, like you, I get frustrated and impatient with those who seem—from my point of view—intentionally obtuse, and my emotion manifests in my language. I regret it and keep trying to do better. Buddhists—not that I am one—prefer practice to worship. Our correspondence I consider good practice.
misterskank on
Re: A Funeral For An Infant
In your particular brand of christianity—the "my way or go to hell" kind—it is apparently acceptable for Lewis to call the opinions of those who disagree with him "patronizing nonsense" and for you to call those you disagree with "hateful," but unacceptable for me to call both of you "arrogant" for your simplistic namecalling. Bigot: "A person of strong conviction or prejudice, especially in matters of religion, race, or politics, who is intolerant of those who differ with him."
christianisrael on
Re: A Funeral For An Infant
I didn't say you are hateful because you disagree with me or with Lewis.  I called you hateful, as you will read, because you continue to attempt to degrade this discussion with personal attacks, even on dead, respected scholars.
misterskank on
Re: A Funeral For An Infant
Because I call him arrogant, you call me hateful? My appraisal degrades discourse and yours does not?
christianisrael on
Re: A Funeral For An Infant
Your insult of this renowned scholar is just one in a long list of things you have said that have not been profitable to meaningful discussion.  If this is not hate that you exude, but love, your definition of that quality seems strange indeed. 
misterskank on
Re: A Funeral For An Infant
And this latest insult of your own?
christianisrael on
Re: A Funeral For An Infant
Misterskank, if you are really saying that I've insulted you, then I apologize and ask you to forgive me.  
schencka on
Re: A Funeral For An Infant
christianisrael surely does a great, solemn service by performing the funeral for an infant.

The guardian angel assertion bothers me, however, because although it's said (by people other than Jesus, and many years later) that angels were present at the birth of Jesus, Jesus in his parables speaks more generically of a "kingdom of God" and a "holy spirit," and calling himself the "Son of Man."

In my reading of the New Testament's Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, what Jesus does not do is speak of strictly metaphysical beings such as "angels." If my assumption is wrong, I'd like to see a biblical passage.
christianisrael on
Re: A Funeral For An Infant
Thank you for asking, schencka.  The passage I referred to in the funeral was Matthew 18:10.
“See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven."

However, there are numerous times that Jesus referred to angels.  In Matthew alone--13:39, 41 and 49; 16:27, 22:30, 24:31, 24:36, 25:31, 25:41, 26:53.

schencka on
Re: A Funeral For An Infant
Thanks for that quote. I had forgotten it, and I like it.
christianisrael on
Re: A Funeral For An Infant
You're welcome!
insaneangel on
Re: A Funeral For An Infant
i wish we could vote for comments, i agree
bonniegirl on
Re: A Funeral For An Infant
Wonderful thoughts; and the innocent dying, even if we do not know them, should bring us to tears, if we have compassion, which I have seen, many times that you do.

 

Have you read Don Piper's book, "Ninety Minutes In Heaven"?  I just finished it and have  been thinking about blogging about it...it changed my concept and desire for heaven forever.

christianisrael on
Re: A Funeral For An Infant
I haven't read it.  I look forward to your post.
bonniegirl on
Re: A Funeral For An Infant
okie dokie

alwaysdoot on
Re: A Funeral For An Infant
I've attended a couple of child funerals - both cousins that were babies, both under 2 years old.   They were the hardest funeral I ever had to go through.  even with the hope that we have as Christians that they're in heavan and God is with them, I still couldn't imagine being the mother.  I can't imagine therefore even more, going through something like that without Christ to carry us through.
christianisrael on
Re: A Funeral For An Infant
Yes--this would be extremely difficult.  The death of those we love always is, isn't it?  The other side of that coin is that it would be weird it weren't difficult.  Love makes us so vulnerable!  As you say, infants are especially hard.  We do our best at such times to sensitively present the hope that is in Him. This baby's doctor and one of the attending nurses were at this memorial service.  
alwaysdoot on
Re: A Funeral For An Infant
He gives us compassion - it's what keeps us humble.
christianisrael on
Re: A Funeral For An Infant
Yes--and I could use a boatload of both!
alwaysdoot on
Re: A Funeral For An Infant
I hear that.
misterskank on
Re: A Funeral For An Infant
I hear that.

 
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