I admit to everyone that I've been trying to tune out the news the past two months.  Somewhere along the way I just had enough of it all.  No, not the petty criminal stories and filler feel-good stuff my local market serves--I'm talking about national news.  The President.  It isn't that I don't care; it's that I care too much.

My general opinion on the state of this nation is that we're in serious trouble.  Not from some louse-ridden terrorists stuck in an oil-rich desert halfway around the planet, no.  We're in trouble because like many cultures before us, we've let a charismatic group of people with a sweetened, poisonous ideology lead us in the wrong direction.

When I was in Catholic school, I remember one lesson that was pounded into my young skull over and over: The ends never justify the means.

So when I hear the Bush administration explaining why it sidestepped the FISA court to conduct domestic surveillance and that they're doing it because, boiled down, "it works", I cringe.  This is the gist of their argument: It's okay to conduct warrantless wiretaps on Americans in America because it helps us get terrorists.  And polls are showing that roughly half the country agrees.  Half of the adults polled said they believe that the ends justify the means.  Spy on us.

Does our personal security justify the removal of our civil liberties?  Half of us here in the US say "yes".

You might be asking yourself if things can get any worse. You might mistakenly believe that the government could only carry something like that so far before the people rise up out of their stupor and change the leadership.  But then, you might want to check out the fight between Google and the US Government.

The Bush administration wants access to what Google knows and they're testing the waters with a legal discovery request (Google is not a party to any crime or lawsuit relating to this request) to get an entire weeks worth of Google's "link database"--the stuff you search for--and the keywords people are using to search for it with.  You see, Google knows who you are, what you like to search for in private, and what ads you respond to.  Heck, they may even hold all your email neatly searchable and if you blog, like me, you might even have your political views exposed as well.  All in one tightly searchable package.  Imagine all the domestic information you could mine out of that.  That's a huge, red apple just dangling there in front of the government.  They'd have to listen to hours and hours and hours of your banal phone calls to aunt Beatrice in South Hampton England to get the same information a few seconds of data mining on Google's data would give them. 

And remember, this is the same government that held an American citizen in custody for 3 years without access to a lawyer or without being charged with a crime. 

So what's next?  Heck if I know.  But there's one thing I've got my ear to the ground for--a one-if-by-land-two-if-by-sea sorta signal.  I think the biggest threat to a government looking to root out undesireables in their midst is encryption technology of sufficient complexity to stymy their searches.  In the past our government has classified encryption technology as a "weapon" and forbid it's transferal beyond our borders.  Anyone on the internet back in the early to mid-90s probably saw all the browser encryption issues related to this. I believe the government will need to crack down on encryption again if they want to keep the Googles and MSN's and other collectors of our personal data nice and fat and searchable.  The more talk you hear about the government restricting or prohibiting encryption, the more you ought to consider buying a little place outside our borders--you know, just to summer in.
 
   

 


 
 
julio on
Re: The ends justify the means
NSA is not tapping intraUS phone calls. Only those either from or to known Al-Qaida sources in other countries to here. Check out this story. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3222595.stm

 

The surveillence of enemies of this country is one of the President's responsibilities as Commander-in-Chief. Back to the link, How can it be ok for NSA to listen to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's phone calls to other places, but not to the US? To not tap that call is to willfully ignore a real threat.

 

"Does our personal security justify the removal of our civil liberties?  Half of us here in the US say "yes". "

 

I don't know about you, but my civil liberties are not threatened by the surveillence of terrorists. I know we haven't talked here on Mindsay yet, so I want to ask a general question about your ideology: Are you a strong libertarian, or do you believe that the US is evil and should be destroyed? (If the latter, I can link you to a couple of guys you would probably enjoy reading.)

bootsgt on
Re: The ends justify the means
Congressional law says the government may not, under any circumstance, tap the conversation of any US citizen within the borders of the USA without a warrant.  Period.  If I pick up a phone and call a person in Canada and the NSA listens in, they are spying on a US citizen within the US borders (me).  It doesn't matter if they're terrorists or Democrats.  The government, including the President, is strictly prohibited in doing that.

"The surveillence of enemies of this country is one of the President's responsibilities as Commander-in-Chief. "
Yes. But the ends do not justify the means.  The surveillance must comply with the law. The law says the President requires a warrant.

Lucky for us the President has access to a secret court that can grant warrants after-the-fact.  Can't get any faster than that, can you?  Search, then get a warrant to cover your ass.  So why doesn't he do that?  Why does our President choose to conduct illegal searches when a fast legal means is available to him?  The only difference between the two, quite frankly, is oversight with a paper trail.   That makes me nervous.  It made one of the secret judges nervous too.  That makes me even more nervous.

My civil liberty, the right to searches only under authority of a legal warrant, is threatened. 

We all know how good the government is at finding terrorists. 6-month old babies are being denied seats on airplanes because they show up on a no-fly list.  So sure, I trust this government to only spy on actual terrorists like I trust them to have only actual terrorists on the no-fly lists.

For the record, I'm socially liberal, fiscally conservative, and lean libertarian.  I'm registered as a Democrat.
bootsgt on
Re: The ends justify the means
I checked out your story.  US citizen plots with Al-Qaida to blow up a bridge.

I'm unsure how that article bolsters an argument against my contention that warrantless searches are bad.
julio on
Re: The ends justify the means
FISA is anything but fast. It takes months to compile the paperwork for a routine search. It is completely inadequte to conduct surveillence against a loosely organized, fast moving group like Al-Qaida.

 

Having said that, It would still be better to just repeal FISA because having hearings would evpose a lot of our methods to the terrorists. Where was the liberal hand wringing when Bubba the Perjurer ignored FISA as well.

 

"I checked out your story.  US citizen plots with Al-Qaida to blow up a bridge.

I'm unsure how that article bolsters an argument against my contention that warrantless searches are bad. "

 

It's simple. The Brooklyn Bridge is still standing. Thanks to "warrentless wiretaps", formerly known as the President defending the country.

 

Check these guys out: ravager and causticveracity .

bootsgt on
Re: The ends justify the means
Who cares if it takes months to compile the paperwork?  The papertrail (accountability anyone?) is crucial to prevent abuse by ANY president. The important thing is the FISA court lets you conduct the search prior to compiling any paperwork.  You get to search first and justify later.  So there is no basis to the contention that the FISA court is too slow.  The NSA operative who currently orders the illegal searches at a moments notice can still order FISA-compliant searches at a moments notice.  What's missing between the two approaches isn't speed but accountability.

FISA is a secret court so there is no risk that methods will be exposed.  (If I'm understanding your conention here correctly.) 

Now hearings into how FISA was violated by the current President would be tricky, but I'd rather give away a secret or two in conducting an inquiry into possible illegal behavior by a sitting President than let a criminal continue to lead our government.  Certainly there is a chance the President is correct and does have the power to act unilaterally.  Either way, I'd have thought Conservatives would be all for investigatios into illegal behavior given the millions we spent to catch the previous president lying about a blow job.  On the scale of "bad things presidents do", lying about a blow job is pretty darn low on the list compared to bypassing the judicial system to conduct warrantless seaches with no accountability.

"It's simple. The Brooklyn Bridge is still standing. Thanks to "warrentless wiretaps", formerly known as the President defending the country."

And here you've just shown a perfect example of "the ends justify the means".  According to you it is perfectly okay for the President to break the law if in so doing something good happens.

I am dismayed that you put "warrantless wiretaps" in quotes.  Are you saying they aren't warrantless? I mean, if you think it's okay for the president to conduct searches without a warrant then why the sneer quotes?  Just own up to it. 

If the President thought it was necessary to drop a nuke in Iran and kill as many Iranians as possible to defend our country, and he did so without congressional approval (in much the same way Clinton sent the cruise missiles after al-qaida), would that be okay too?  Are we only arguing about the degree of the preceived harm here or something more basic to the act?
bardsinister on
Re: The ends justify the means
You're right about the FISA procedures, Shawn.  And even when the Administration did submit paperwork, the court staff had to make hundreds of corrections to it.  Daily Kos posted statistics about this quite some time ago.

The allegations that Clinton violated the law are spurious.  The law was amended  after the questionable incidents with Clinton and the suspected spy--probably as a result of that.

I worked with one of the attorneys at Congressional Research Service who prepared the report that concluded Bush's wiretapping activities were a legal.  She has had a Q clearance for over 20 years, and acted as the special legal adviser for closed Intelligence Committee hearings.  She probably prepared two version of that white paper: one for the Committee,  and one for Congress-at-large and the public.  Elizabeth is an excellent attorney (impeachments hearings were also part of her beat) and if a non-partisan organization like CRS is willing to say that the wiretappings were illegal (I'll confess, I have not read the whole report), they were.  If I chose to write about the subject, it would be for a legal journal, not Mindsay. 

Your final hypothetical is an interesting, and complicated, one.  If I win the lottery and the whim hits me to apply for my PhD or an advanced degree in law, it would make an interesting basis for a thesis.  Actually, it might make an interesting basis for a journal article.  I'd like to rack up some publication credits and apply for teaching jobs.

The question of the Executive violating FISA is not something that the federal courts would readily agree to hear because the issue presents many separation of powers constraints.  (It's called the Abstention Doctrine.)  Besides, a resolution would take years.  The best route is to conduct a Congressional investigation, closed to the public for classified information, then let Congress decide if it needs to amend FISA again, or take other action.  Impeachment: it's not just for blow jobs anymore.  There is a bumper sticker for you.
justjayme on
Re: The ends justify the means
It takes months to do paperwork? Who the hell is doing the paperwork? Is it Corky? You are correct though, if FISA is worthless then they should get the law changed. Maybe they should have changed it before they started wiretapping illegally. The fact is they broke the law and W. lied to us in Buffalo on April 20, 2004. How can you support this? 
justjames on
Re: The ends justify the means
Sorry, I meant to post this under my name. I didn't realize my wife's name was still logged in.
julio on
Re: The ends justify the means
I cannot support giving the enemies of this country the same constitutional rights that we as citizens have, just because they have managed to sneak into the country.
bootsgt on
Re: The ends justify the means
Enemies that sneak into the country, AKA "illegal aliens", do not have the same constitutional rights.  So you're safe there.

The danger zone is that point at which American citizens, like Jose Padilla and all those spied on without warrants, are denied their rights.  Right to a lawyer. Right to a speedy trial. Freedom of speech.  Right to protection from unlawful searches. 

When the government starts calling its own citizens "enemies" and believes as you do that they deserve no rights we are in deep trouble.

julio on
Re: The ends justify the means
FDR did it in WWII and no one complained. When anyone, citizen or not, commits an act of war against the US, they should be treated like a combatant, legal or otherwise, and not as a common criminal. Setting a fire in the World Trade Center is arson. Driving a 747 into it is an act of war.

PS. Your belief that illegal aliens do not have constitutional rights puts you to the right of almost all of the people who take your side on this issue.
bootsgt on
Re: The ends justify the means
Growinig up where I did, near a Japanese-American internment camp, I can tell you there was and is a lot of complaining still going on about that.  Most of us haven't forgotten our country's own shameful treatment of our own citizens.

A group of people cannot declare "war" against a nation.  Just a nit, but it takes a nation to technically do that.  American citizens that take up arms against this country are still citizens and still entitled to Constitutional protections, which I might add allow for the death penalty for treason.  Our laws are meaningless if we can suspend them so easily. 

I do not believe illegal aliens have no rights under our contitution.  Let's be clear, our Bill of Rights starts out with the words "inalienable" which means our system believes all peoples of the world deserve and have these rights regardless of what their own governments think.  I just don't think they have a legal claim to be here. 
julio on
Re: The ends justify the means
Yet, during the war, the Supreme Court upheld the internment, recoignizing that the war powers of the President are granted by the constitution and not to be surrendered to the courts by him like Jimmy Carter did when he signed FISA in 1978.

Technically, yes, but there are things which rise above the level of ordinary crime. FDR executed 2 citizens for aiding Nazi saboteurs after only military tribunals.

Actually, inalienable is in the Declaration of Independence. Yes, illegal immigrants have these rights, but in their home countries.
bootsgt on
Re: The ends justify the means
The President has the power to confiscate all personal possessions and imprison whole families without evidence of a crime? And this is a Constitutional power specifically granted to him?

Quite frankly, if that's true, it's time for another revolution.
bardsinister on
Re: The ends justify the means
Shawn, people like you are the ones who encourage me to continue fighting, when I feel like giving up.

So many Americans seem convinced that these warantless searches were necessary, for their protection against terrorism.  Greepeace?  PETA?  Why are those organizations worth watching through non-authorized phone taps?  I wanted to believe that a large sector the US public could figure out what has been going on.  Apparently, not.
bootsgt on
Re: The ends justify the means
Remember, a true patriot these days doesn't question the government.  Support for our troups requires support for our President.  Shame on anyone that would suggest otherwise!
bardsinister on
Re: The ends justify the means
How very true!  Shame on me.  I do wonder what those warrantless searches disclosed about the GLBT group at UC Santa Cruz that staged a "kiss in."  Greenpeace is also likely harboring whales of mass destruction.
bootsgt on
Re: The ends justify the means
"Whales of Mass Destruction"   I love it.  Is there a bumper sticker?
bardsinister on
Re: The ends justify the means
We could probably make one at Cafe Press.  I should ask gusopenshaw if I can borrow one of his whale scrimshaws.  
bootsgt on
Re: The ends justify the means
"In today's news, President Bush says they discovered Whales of Mass Destruction near the Arctic Wildlife Preserve and that invasion is imminent.  Exxon-Mobile rigs and tankes were seen fueling up in Alaskan dockyards to respond to the threat.  Environmentalists are being urged by civil liberties groups to throw away their cell phones and avoid using the internet.  Smart bombs, they say, can drop from the sky and target the cell phone user and those nearby.  Congressional Democrats expressed outrage and assured this reporter that they didn't intend the declaration of war on terror to include environmentalists.
 
In other news,  two babies and a nun were turned away from their flights this week after their names came up on the government's Environmentalist No-Fly list.  One of the toddlers was wearing a monster truck rally bib and sported a mullet, obviously not an Environmentalist to this reporter's untrained eye."  
bardsinister on
Re: The ends justify the means
A monster truck rally bib and a mullet....  Hilarious.

I need to find some clips of Gonzales's hearing testimony. 
bootsgt on
Re: The ends justify the means
I live in the South, remember?  I'm not making this stuff up.
bardsinister on
Re: The ends justify the means
I don't think you are making it up (although I wish that were the case).  Shawn, "Bubba" is everywhere.  The tiny town where I grew up in NY is probably as hick and redneck as you could imagine.

 
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