you need to be really careful around that kind of stuff man. In fact I would say it's best to avoid it entirely. Insence and what not aren't problems in and of themselves (in my experience the right insence can smell very pretty), but practicing magic can be dangerous. Not because it could work (as it does not work) but because you can unwittingly leave yourself vulnerable to spiritual attack. Don't get me wrong I'm not one of those crazy folks whos all like "Star wars and lotr and harry potter are the devil!" But when we involve ourselves with the spiritual world we can often get more than we bargained for if we just go running about all willy nilly. Just like the real world, if you accidently go down the wrong street, you can end up in the wrong neighborhood. It's easy to get in, but getting out is another story.

uhhhhh.

i just really like the place. i'm not into doing spells and stuff like that. i find it interesting to learn about it and such.

Well, be careful man, thats all i'm saying, you can take it or leave it. I used to be intrested in that stuff too (albeit marginally) until I found Jesus.

uhh. sure.

i'm Jewish.

lol so was he :-p

who?

Jesus!

oh. yeah. ha. i knew that. >.>

lol of course! Besides, it's old testament prophecy that fortold the first coming of Christ and actually comfirmed it.

For example, according to old testament prophecy, the Messiah would come while the temple in Jerusalem still stood. By 70 AD this temple, along with Jerusalem, was destroyed. This is even more important one considers the prophecized ancestry of the Messiah, which could only have been verified by documents that were kept in said temple. When the temple was destroyed though, these genealogical records were lost, makeing it impossible for anyone born after the destruction of them temple to trace their annestry back to the prophecised roots. In other words, acording to Jewish scripture, the Messiah's first comming would have to had occured before 70 AD, or not at all.

uhh. no. the Torah doesn't say that.

like at all.

Malachi chapter 3, line 1

"Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts."

The above is old Testament scripture

uhhh. yeah sure.

my bible says nothing, if any, about anything of a "messiah".

it's my bible. i would know right?

depending on your edition it can be translated as messenger, but the concept of a Messiah is not one of pureley Christian roots. The conept of a Messiah is purely Jewish one that existed long before Jesus was ever around. The fundemental disagreement between Jewish and Christian tradition isn't wether the Messiah concept is real, but wether Jesus was that Mesiah or wether said Messiah has yet to come. Wether you want to refer to it as a messenger or a messiah is irrelevant, but it is a figure referenced pretty much throughout the entire old testament, and that Jewish scholars both today, and in and befor the time of Christ were quite familiar with. If for the sake of argument you would rather refer to it as a messenger thats fine with me. If you like I can go through and find some other references to the figure in the old testament.

i know the concept of a messiah. we have one. only our religion isn't based on getting saved. personally i think that's just a waste of time thinking about death and what'll happen afterwards. what happens NOW when you're ALIVE is what matters. that's the Jewish religion. we don't care about death. really. we think if you are a good person. and you do good deeds. then you will go to heaven. if you don't, then you go to hell. only we don't bother ourselves so much with that. like the idea of heaven and hell in the Jewish religion is something i have a hard time really talking about because that's not even what it's about.

christians and what not can look at anything and say 'Jesus'. or 'Messiah'. or 'clear reason we need to be SAVED'. that's not how we see it. and it was given to US if you would recall.

lol, I was raised jewish, I even had a barmitzva, so I'm familiar with the ideology.

You seem to have the impression that all of these concepts life after death, life during life, salvation, etc. are mutualy exclusive or have no baring on eachother, when in fact they are all practicaly insperable.

"i think that's just a waste of time thinking about death and what'll happen afterwards. what happens NOW when you're ALIVE is what matters"

Absoltuley what happens during ones physicial life is crucial, as these actions have a direct impact on what occurs afterwords and on the lives of others in our immediate world.

"we think if you are a good person. and you do good deeds. then you will go to heaven. if you don't, then you go to hell."

sounds simple enough, but what is our definition of good? Well, if you take your torah seriously, the place to go would be the ten commandments and the other laws layed out by the profits for clean and Godly living. Can you, or I, or anybody, else honestly say that we have and will always live up to these consistantly for our entire life? I scincerley doubt it, as to do so woud be to achieve perfection, and what mortal man is perfect? The old testament demonstrates time and time again that those who transgress the Law will be punished, if not in this life, than in the next.

So who needs salvation? I would say everybody, unless one happens to be perfect. We may measure up very well to saaaaay charles manson, but how do we measure up to God? I think if people are honest with themselves the answer is quite poorley. Salvation is forgiveness for our sins. It's a gift, from God, and all we have to do is accept said gift of forgiveness and have faith that we are forgiven. Of course it easy for one to say they have faith but if they don't act like it and repent then what kind of faith is that?

"like the idea of heaven and hell in the Jewish religion is something i have a hard time really talking about because that's not even what it's about. "

well, i agree and I disagree. God loves us and has made himself a part of our lives in order that we may live more peacefuly and lovingly towards one another. So that we can be the best people we can possibly. But what does that have to do with heaven and hell? Well if your up for decent living and having a healthy relationship with God then God's kingdom is the place for you. If not, well, their it is then.

"and it was given to US if you would recall."

If by US you mean the early Jewish tribes and prophets then yes, yes it was, but God is for everybody. God spends a pretty healthy portion of both Testaments performing various deeds and works in order to spread his Word and Truth, and the old testament itself states that the Messiah will be a messenger to the gentiles as well as the Jews. It's not so much a matter of who God is for, but rather decides they want to be for God.

and Jews basically started most mainstream religions that are here today. christianity's got nothin' on us.

good as in good. you were raised Jewish then you would know. doing good deeds. keeping kosher. that kind of stuff. good person. who cares what you believe.

"good as in good. you were raised Jewish then you would know. doing good deeds. keeping kosher."

Good deeds as defined by who? Human standards are notoriously weak and felixble.

"who cares what you believe."

In a word, God. He gave his commands, his prophecies, his sighns, his maracles for a reason.

>.> GOOD. giving to charity. keeping kosher. doing what is commanded of us. who the hell is going to think 'good' is murder or adultery or something? we all know good.

yeah he gave them to us for a reason. to follow them and the world will be a better place.

"who the hell is going to think 'good' is murder or adultery or something?"

Al Qaeda and some of the other more radical supporters of Salafism (big fans of murder)

Mara Salvatchura (MS 13) (staunch supporters of murder, rape, adultery, etc.)

Nazis (self explanitory)

perhaps i have a darker view of human beings than you, but studies, and frankly I believe just watching the news and how humans interact with one another in general, can verify that when placed in the right situation, ordinarily good people are capable truely horrific acts, and that we humans, in and of ourselves, are not nearly as smart and righteous as we would like to believe we are.

"yeah he gave them to us for a reason. to follow them and the world will be a better place."

Exactly! We are in full 100% agreement on that issue. In which case, being one who takes her tora seriously, dont you think it would be wise to seriously consider the messianic prophecies? Do you think God does not take man's belief in Him seriously? If so, I would be very intrested to see Torah citation suporting this

oh my gosh. do you know anything about Al Qaeda? the leaders of Al Qaeda aren't acting on religion. the people doing their bidding THINK they are but they're being brain-washed. look it up.

yeah when put in those "horrific" situations. jeez. anyone can. it's called self defense. hello?

there are no messianic prophesies in the Torah. nothing to that effect has ever been written in the Torah. never.

"oh my gosh. do you know anything about Al Qaeda? the leaders of Al Qaeda aren't acting on religion. the people doing their bidding THINK they are but they're being brain-washed. look it up. "

Oh I have. In fact I just finished a book on the subject, its called "My Year Inside Radical Islam" by Daveed Gorenstein-Ross. It was very intresting, you should check it out.

If you decide not to do so, here are some quaranic verses for you to consider

"fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem"

""Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and his apostle nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth (even if they are) of the people of the Book, until they pay the Jizya [religious tax] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.""

"Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him"

"An infidel spy came to the Prophet while he was on a journey. The spy sat with the companions of the Prophet and started talking and then went away. The Prophet said (to his companions), ‘Chase and kill him.’ So, I killed him. The Prophet then gave him the belongings of the killed spy"

"The Punishment for those who oppose Allah and his messenger is : Execution or Crucifixion or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides or exile from the land"

“They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): but take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks…”

"When you meet the unbelievers, strike off their heads; then when you have made wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives"

If your are not convinced of the brutal nature of fundemental islam, the I challenge you to prove me wrong. Take a plane to afganistan and confront a fundementalist face to face. If you are right, then you will be able to return to me and say so.

Bare in mind im not saying that all peolpe idenitifying as muslims are bloodthristy monsters. But to say that the teachings of the koran has no baring on the actions or beliefs of al qaeda opperatives and leaders simply has no baring in reality.

"yeah when put in those "horrific" situations. jeez. anyone can. it's called self defense. hello? "

No i mean un provoced cruelty, not self defence. Unless the holocaust was provoked, or lychings during the civil rights movement. The slogan of Mara Salvatrucha is "we kill, we rape, we control". How do you join? If your a chick, they jump you and gang rape you, and your in. If your a dude? You have to join the other emembers in gang rape to prove your cold hearted enough to help them hack up busses of women and children with machettes (that actually happened btw). People tend to make horrible human beings. You don't even need to be a murderer to be a sinner. Just look at american culture. Sex, drugs, alchohol, violence, hatred, it's a everywhere, and it starting younger and younger. My neighboring town has a coke problem in its middle schools. What does that have to do with self defence?

"there are no messianic prophesies in the Torah. nothing to that effect has ever been written in the Torah. never."

"The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear, according to all you desired of the LORD your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.' And the LORD said to me: 'What they have spoken is good. 'I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him'."
(Deuteronomy 18:15-19)

Thats just one example, and I'm pretty sure its from the torah, but the very concept of a Messiah or a Messenger or Anointed one, or The Prophet (whatever you want to call it) are based in torah and old testament scripture.

Heres a little more old testment scripture on messianic prophecy

" But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."
(Micah 5:2).

"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel"
(Isaiah 7:14)

Immanuel means "God with us"

"The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be."
(Genesis 49:10)

Shiloh is a name throughout the old testament used in referance to the Messiah (which litarly translated means "The Anointed One") It is though that the name shiloh is a derivative of the word Shalom, meaning peace.

The septre is considered to have departed in about 11 AD, according to the Jewish historian Josephus. Here is a wikipedia article on him if your are unfamiliar with him
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus

Your excerpt from Deuteronomy tells of the advent of prophets of Israel. Jewish tradition has a belief in prophets -- including and beginning with Moses who was a messenger of God's word to the people.  However, I have to stand with the original claim: Messianic prophecy is not brought up in the Pentateuch/Torah (defined as the first five books of Hebrew Scripture).

A Messianic era is discussed by many of the prophets, but Jewish tradition does not interpret the personifications of a Messianic being in the same way Christianity does. In some cases (including the ones you've provided above), the prophecies can be attributed towards the rise of King Hezekiah as a ruler -- not as a manifestation of a Messiah.

It all boils down to interpretation by different groups with different beliefs.

-- S

"It all boils down to interpretation by different groups with different beliefs. "

That is certainly a valid point. At the very least we ca agree on the content of scripture if not the interpretation.

And once that's been established we can both argue until we die :-)

either way this entire debate is based on the subject of pagan and wicken paraphanelia and practice. Can we at least agree that such practices are condemed by scripture? Both Old and New Testament?

either way this entire debate is based on the subject of pagan and wicken paraphanelia and practice. Can we at least agree that such practices are condemed by scripture? Both Old and New Testament?

I disagree. This entire debate began as a warning from you to Becca against "practicing magic." She made it pretty clear right from the start that this wasn't her intention.  You disclosed that you were Christian, and she disclosed she was Jewish. THEN you began to prove to her that the Messiah through Jesus was actually a Jewish concept.  That's where the debate began. It has NOTHING to do with paganism or wicca.

-- S

that wasnt my question to you though

Exodus 20:3-5 (or what we call the Second Commandment) -- "Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; and showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments."

I can only speak for mainstream traditional Judaism, but according to this verse (and its parallel verse in Deuteronomy) there is a prohibition for Jews against the worship of other gods or idols.

Does that answer your question?

-- S

yes

Well, Mr. Skank, I can't speak for entire populations in general, but I can assure you that you're going to hell for buying that Justin Timberlake CD last year.  Shame shame...

-- S

A job is convenient for sure!

 

But yeah, hopefully because of the different beliefs there they don't shun Christmas or anything, that would just be weird and bad! *chuckles*

♥ Dan

what? no no no no. they're closed for Christmas. i said i could work on Christmas and she just said no.

she needs me around the holidays because it gets busy so nobody has time to sit around and file shit. so that's what i'm for.

Well that sounds pretty good then ^_^

♥ Dan

yuuuuppers.

i read your post and then the comments and was totally lost as to how it ended up being about religion when all you wanted to do was work in a pAgan shop.  i can assure you that your spirit will be safe if you decide to take the job, im sure that you will meet a variety of interesting people while being employed there. jobs are hard to come by during the holidays unless you like working in a place like mcdonalds.

yeah i have no clue. she warned me about using witchcraft and i'm like uhh. i don't believe in that stuff. i just really like the place. i'll have to take some pictures though. it's really cool. and then she's like oh i've found Jesus. okay uhh. i'm Jewish. just conversation whatever. and then she'll all oh messiah and you need to be saved and i'm just like whoa. whaaaaaat's going on.

but then Shiny came to my little rescue.