To start this post off, I would like to say a few things. judaism has never held a view that God is a Trinity. Since the scriptures of judaism and the old testament are closely related, and in some cases identical, I would think they have good reason for their belief against this concept. Although I cannot simply assume this, because I have seen time and time again that sometimes organized religion and/or groups of people have held beliefs that do not originate from their scriptures. Another interesting note is the trinity was not accepted by early christians, many being converts from judaism, and not even by early christianity. The trinity was only accepted into christianity after several debates on the nature of christ were conducted and was not formulated until the 4th century. Yet, regardless of the history of how this concept came about, it is one of the defining beliefs of christianity for many. Though some denominations do not believe in the concept, while still considering themselves christian.

 

Now let us begin analyzing every single verse and as much context as needed regarding every single verse that has ever been used to prove the trinity which I have seen used before.

 

=====================================================================

Genesis 1:26 , 3:22 , 7:11 , and possibly others make reference to God as "Us" and "Our" in the case of Genesis 1:26

 

Trinitarians will argue the use of plurality supports the trinity. However there are several problems with this argument.

 

#1 The use of plurality may signify authority, power, or greatness. In the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Arabic languages the use of plurality is used to magnify/emphasize a person's greatness. And considering the old testament was likely to be originally written in one of these languages, it would follow that the usage was not intended to signify a plurality in persons.

 

#2 In Genesis 1:27, right after the supposed trinitarian plurality, the verb used for "Created" is singular. This would mean that God is being referred to as a singular person, not a plurality of persons.

(Source : http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq134.html  ;check it out. There is much more they have to say, then the small bit I used)

 

#3 Even if it were accepted that the use of "Us" and "Our" signified a plurality in persons, if would not tell us HOW MANY! Meaning God could be a Binity, Trinity, Quadinity, ===> Infinitinity. So one would have to use another verse to state how many (I would say it would likely be a new testament verse).

=====================================================================

=====================================================================

Then there is Genesis 1:2 where it is said "and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters"

 

In short, this verse proves nothing. There is absolutely no mention of the 2nd member, even if you take this to be the third. And looking at the context, the verse does not exclusively say the Spirit = God or whether the Spirit is seperate from God. Also there is a large lack of knowledge as to what this "Spirit" is referring to. But regardless of the lack of knowledge the verse still offers no support to the trinitarian belief, although trinitarians may like it.

=====================================================================

=====================================================================

Next there is Isaiah where it is stated : "[...] And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, with his Spirit."

 

According to the same source I used above (http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq122.html) this verse is actually being mistranslated, possibly purposely. The verse is supposed to read "and now the Lord God has sent me, and His Spirit" Some translations like the KJV even mistranslate it more so in saying "[...]and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me." This misdoing is the precise problem the site speaks of, however even the NIV is alittle off, which might lead one to a trinitarian view.

 

With all this in mind, the spirit being spoken of has no context suggesting it is the third member of the trinity. You could just as easily say the spirit being spoken of is a prophetic spirit given to the prophet. The source I use even goes as far as to show that this "spirit" cannot be a member of a coequal trinity God, because the spirit is ordered around by God. (Check out Numbers 11:17 , 11:25, and 11:29 among others listed on the website used above)

=====================================================================

=====================================================================

Genesis 19:24 is another place trinitarians like to cite. It says "Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens."

 

Trinitarians claim that the two places the LORD is referred to proves that God is a trinity.

 

I have seen some people speculate as to the first LORD being an army of angels sent by the LORD, thus they represent the LORD on earth. This view is supported by the context of the chapters before this verse. For example, in Genesis 18:1-5 the LORD appears in the form of three men who are later labeled as angels in Genesis 19:1-29 (And the three angels does not prove the trinity either. Commonly people mistake numbers for meanings, when really no meaning is intended or even there). Also in chapter 19 verse 13 the angels say they are going to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah and that the LORD has sent them to destroy it. Finally in verse 24 of the same chapter we come to the verse of question. So let's recap. The LORD appeared in the form of three angels (Obviously the three angels are not God, but they represent God on earth). These angels tell us they are here to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah and that they were sent by the LORD to do it. Now using all this let's look at what my pervious source has to say on the topic (http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq061.html)

 

The source claims the mention of LORD twice is to emphasize that the LORD is the cause, the doer, the performer, the commander. This might be important considering ANGELS were sent to perform the destruction. God is making it clear who is commanding the destruction of the city.

=====================================================================

 

 

These are all the old testament verses I have seen used so far. Some have mentioned others on certain websites, but after reading their claims and the verses along with context I felt their view was so baseless and without restraint by the text that it was not appropriate to label it as proof. If these verses come up in the comments, then I'll address them. Otherwise, this is the post on the old testament and whether the trinity is proven therein.

 

CONCLUSION:


The old testament does not prove the trinity. It can be argued that it actually disproves the trinity, but all I am concerned with is whether it proved the trinity in any manner. After analyzing the oftenly used verses, I conclude it does not.

 

 

 
   

 


Comment Page: 1 2 3   [Next]
 
wandering on
Re: The Trinity : Part I - The Old Testament
great job picking apart the trinity arguments in the OT...makes me want to look more into it (if anything to prove you wrong   ).  So...are you planning on looking into the New Testament too?  Because Luke 3:21-22 is something very interesting to look at...

Keep digging!

antichristian on
Re: The Trinity : Part I - The Old Testament
great job picking apart the trinity arguments in the OT...makes me want to look more into it (if anything to prove you wrong   ). 

 

Tell me if you find any mistakes. Smiley

 

So...are you planning on looking into the New Testament too?  Because Luke 3:21-22 is something very interesting to look at...

 

Yes. That is the very next post. I intend to work on it tommorow. I'm sure my work is cut out for me.

 

Keep digging!

 

Will do.

hosking on
Re: The Trinity : Part I - The Old Testament
Actually if the trinity was proven in the bible it would be in the new testament (not old) because Jesus said, I am the son of God.  Though the idea of the trinity (3 in 1) was not conceived until the creation of the Nicene creed written in the 4th century.  300 years after the life of Jesus.  I believe it was written to attract pagans to Christianity.  Because pagans were polytheistic.

 

Myself , I once again, quote words written by Thomas Jefferson about the silliness of 3 in 1.

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/jefferson_smith.html

antichristian on
Re: The Trinity : Part I - The Old Testament
Actually if the trinity was proven in the bible it would be in the new testament (not old) because Jesus said, I am the son of God. 

 

Yes, this is correct. I am doing a post on the new testament next. I just wanted to address the old first, because it is certainly the less work of the two. Less verses and less explaination.

 

I believe it was written to attract pagans to Christianity.  Because pagans were polytheistic.

 

Quite possible.

 

Myself , I once again, quote words written by Thomas Jefferson about the silliness of 3 in 1.

 

This is my favorite part of that letter:

 

"In fact, the Athanasian paradox that one is three, and three but one, is so incomprehensible to the human mind, that no candid man can say he has any idea of it, and how can he believe what presents no idea? He who thinks he does, only deceives himself. He proves, also, that man, once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without a rudder, is the sport of every wind. With such persons, gullibility which they call faith, takes the helm from the hand of reason, and the mind becomes a wreck."

hosking on
Re: The Trinity : Part I - The Old Testament
Yes that part of the letter is my favorite too.  I really would have loved to have met Thomas Jefferson.  I quoted those lines in an article I co-wrote with my sister on why I chose to become Unitarian after being raised Lutheran.  http://www.ritro.com/sections/newage/story.bv?storyid=3295

 

mrhappypantsman on
Re: The Trinity : Part I - The Old Testament
Only gotten around to reading 3 entries (most recent and the first two), and I'm curious.

What are you attacking, here?  Christianity as an organization, the ignorance of most Christians, the "infallability" of the Bible, Christianity as a doctrine/governing factor, Christianity as a faith, or something else or some combination thereof?

I ask because your posts do spark curiosity in me (I am a Christian, myself, though I disagree with the organization of it "as it is today"), but well, after all, one of the fundamental aspects of philosophy and religion is that any argument, pro- or anti-, can be shown to be good, bad, right, or wrong (the last to being subjective in the largest respects) so long as both the effort and mindset are put in there.

A lot of fluff, sorry--I fail at "technical writing."

antichristian on
Re: The Trinity : Part I - The Old Testament
What are you attacking, here?  Christianity as an organization, the ignorance of most Christians, the "infallability" of the Bible, Christianity as a doctrine/governing factor, Christianity as a faith, or something else or some combination thereof?

 

Good question. I am opposing christianity as a organized religion (And this is actually quite vague, because many different groups of people profess to being christians and members of christianity but have rather different beliefs. So specifically the denominations holding the beliefs I oppose based on the scripture available.) I am opposing christians who blindly accept anything their preachers tell them, their parents tell them, or anyone else feeding them what I believe to be falsehoods (This ties back to the opposing of organized denominations with the beliefs which, IMO, have no biblical basis, or even worse disproof of). Sometimes I do attack the infallability of the bible, but not as harshly as I have done in the past. I now call it "Story time." This is about it. And I do, for the sake of argument, assume the bible infallible when discussing matters of beliefs with regard to the religion of christianity, even though this is not a belief I hold.

 

 

mrhappypantsman on
Re: The Trinity : Part I - The Old Testament
I see.  Thank you, and I look forward to reading more.  Also, about attacking Christianity as an organized religion (I'm assuming you encourage debate whenever possible, also assuming "debate" does not lead to some sort of nonsensical "anger-frenzy").

I dislike Christianity as an organization because it has strayed from its primary purpose:  that is, "convert others" (which means that Christians who shove their beliefs down others' throats are actually "kind of" doing what their sect demands).  Now everyone holes themselves up in churches and just expects masses to flock to them instead of going out and witnessing for others (now, there are mass witnessings and then the Gideons [the only "denomination" of Christianity and the only Christians I respect on a "global" scale since they're not "jerks" about what they do and tend to stray from hypocrisy enough that it's rare] among other things), which I think is both lazy and absurd.

The question here, then, is what is your dislike for the organization itself?
antichristian on
Re: The Trinity : Part I - The Old Testament
what is your dislike for the organization itself?

 

My foremost problem with the organization is that it teaches doctrines which are not supported by the bible explicitly. Meaning that the passages used as "proof" can be interperted several different ways, so they arbitarily choose one that seems to ignore the foundation the organization started upon, judaism. And at times they "fill in the blanks." A text is close to the doctrine being taught, so they "interpert" the text. But really what they do is add to the text with their words (Not physically to the book).

 

Other aspects I dislike pretain mostly to the catholic denomination, who make up the largest portion of christians in the world. Such positions as the Pope are to my disliking. Although, the Pope in current day does not have the sort of power the Popes of the past had. The fact that the catholics added text to the old testament (The Apocrypha). The selection process by which the bible's books were choosen by the catholic organization. And so forth. My objections really break down into these categories:

 

1. Foundation/Beginning

2. Canon of new testament/Addition to old testament

3. Current day/Past hypocrisy

pinoyatheist on
Re: The Trinity : Part I - The Old Testament
Just curious...You have a dislike with Christians but you agree with the Bible. Is that right? Here in the Philippines, we have a group known  as "anti-Paul" because they believe that Paul and Paulinian Christianity is from the devil.

 

Maybe next time I may include some of their teaching in my blog.

antichristian on
Re: The Trinity : Part I - The Old Testament
Just curious...You have a dislike with Christians but you agree with the Bible. Is that right?

 

"And I do, for the sake of argument, assume the bible infallible when discussing matters of beliefs with regard to the religion of christianity, even though this is not a belief I hold."

 

I make more progress with christians by using their scripture against their beliefs. Because lucky for me, not all their beliefs are founded in their scriptures. If I just said the bible is not the word of God, that would pretty much be the end of the discussion. People would come and offer some disagreement, but no progress.

 

Here in the Philippines, we have a group known  as "anti-Paul" because they believe that Paul and Paulinian Christianity is from the devil.

 

I'm not a fan of paul myself.

 

Maybe next time I may include some of their teaching in my blog.

 

Sounds good

 

sidetrack on
Re: The Trinity : Part I - The Old Testament
  Did you see on the news where they are taking Jesus Christ to court: they are questioning  if he is real, if he ever was . . . . . .
antichristian on
Re: The Trinity : Part I - The Old Testament
Nope, did not see that. Real is what sense? Real as in what the new testament says jesus did and said. Or real as in there was a person named jesus?

sidetrack on
Re: The Trinity : Part I - The Old Testament
  Real as in if he really exsisted or not, as a man as the son of God, they don't believe that either.   And they obviously don't care what the bible says.  I think it's a lot like when they were trying to find out facts about Noah's Ark, and similar things that were in the bible.
antichristian on
Re: The Trinity : Part I - The Old Testament
Real as in if he really exsisted or not, as a man as the son of God, they don't believe that either.   And they obviously don't care what the bible says.  I think it's a lot like when they were trying to find out facts about Noah's Ark, and similar things that were in the bible.

 

Proving history is usually impossible. I do not see how someone would go about concluding whether a historical person existed or not. Reason being, people generally accept the existence of a person after sensing them (i.e. Sight,Smell,Touch,Taste,Hearing). Reading about a person's existence in a book from history or elsewhere does nothing for proof. If it did do something then all the fictional writers of our times are gods creating their own peoples and worlds.

 

I find the notion of trying to disprove/prove history and/or people and events in history is be nothing short of silly. All a person can do is offer an argument against the way the person and/or event is cited. For example, someone might question how possible the account of Noah's ark is, concluding with either a position of impossible or possible. But to question the actual existence? No proof either way. For all we know Noah's ark could have been a fishing boat of a man named Noah. Maybe big, maybe small. Who knows. Since the proof is equal on both sides for existence, it is fine to conclude either way. But if someone told me Noah's ark was a inter-galactic spacecraft, then we have a problem.

MakenZero on
Re: The Trinity : Part I - The Old Testament
So I finally started reading your blog here. And just by your name I thought it was going to be bashing Christians forwhatever reason of believing in God. I went along to read what was going on in this entry. And that's correct a lot of people don't seem to get that the we added stuff to the bible. I'm a christian but there are a lot of other christians who think in totally different ways and all  even my girlfriend. I'm baptist and she's Catholic and she's just can't stand the way it is. Where they're focusing on materialistic things and etc. I know I'm not perfect and I know she knows we're not perfect on all bible reading and be able to point out examples. The only thing probably that has been keeping me to go to church is my pastor, it's like he's talking straight dead at me with god's will everytime.  I've been going to church all my life and last year I only went 5 times, so lots have changed but he's still someone I likely trust because he really does put himself out there to be attack. Probably why you see him on actual television places. NBC and even BET. A total black telvision station letting a white guy preach the word of God. And I've noticed that over the years even with people trying to take out God's teachings and what not. That the list of proving that Jesus didn't exist is slimming down. there finding things, even finding cities under water, that perhaps that Noah's Arc and the flood was real. Sorry for ranting it's a good topic. ^_^
toph on
Re: The Trinity : Part I - The Old Testament
an interesting alternative to the question "what was added?" is ''what has been left out?"

 

why must 'the word of god' be censored?

MakenZero on
Re: The Trinity : Part I - The Old Testament
I think all of us deep down inside really do fear it, and we do everything to make people doubt whoever believes in God. I don't know, but I think this is really the worst time to live in U.S. too many bad things we're letting go off as if it was okay. So they do the whole Coal Miner thing on the news lately. And that's good, but what's bad is they only do it when people are suffering so much. Not only that remember when it happen in Penn State, but all the guys were alive and the media jumped on it so much that they even made a t.v. movie out of it? So I'm kind of bad that there were all these cameras building up everyone's hope and pretty much rub it in people's faces and all. It was like they're making fools out of West virigia. The only use God when things go wrong as a country. Sorry just typing what's all in my head right now really. @_@

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