My super long reply to elbeaner's paper that he posted. Sorry for taking so long! :(

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~~~

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What you have written here only brushes the tip of philosophical arguments that have been debated for centuries. In saying this, I’m going to let you know right now that it is highly unlikely for anyone debating these questions would ever find a definite answer, so the most you can do for anyone is hold the knowledge that they might also be correct in more than one way, no matter how convinced you are of the soundness of your own moral convictions. Also, before I begin with my analysis of the subject, I’m going to remind anyone reading this that I do not claim to have expertise on this subject, I only wish to put down what I know, or for the matter of philosophy, what I think I know. ;)

 

~~~

 

Now, the first topic you discussed is what is called in Philosophy the “Problem of Evil”, which is a critique for theism, wanting to disprove it. Essentially it states the following:

 

  1. “God” is believed omnipotent (all powerful)
  2. “God” is believed omniscient (all-knowing).
  3. “God” is believed omni-benevolent (all good).
  4. Yet, there is evil in this world. (Evil in the broad sense of suffering in general).

Looking at this, an atheist might solve the problem by simply stating that “God” (and I am using God as a general term, for there are also arguments as to what God might be) does not exist. So, really, the problem here lies in the eyes of the theist. How can all of these things be true, when they seem inconsistent? There is more than one explanation for this, but I’m only going to give you a general definition of the ones I feel are most relevant.

 

The first is called Leibniz’s “Best Possible Worlds” solution. It states that:

  1. This is the best of all possible worlds.
  2. Hence, the evil that exists must be necessary to make the world the best it can be (not perfect).

Examples:

1.      Appreciation. Ex: Sickness makes us appreciate health better. War makes us appreciate peace. Etc...

2.      Hardship and suffering allows for the greater goods to exist such as charity and heroism.

3.      Challenges make genuine achievement possible.

So in other words, Leibniz believed that a world with all suffering was no good, and the good in a world with only good could not measure up to the good in a world where we can compare it to bad. Think about it this way: During school, when you work hard all week, the weekends are especially good, because you have worked hard all week. So when you are at home every day in the summer, the weekends are not so special because you are home every day. Leibniz believed (I would think) that the large amount of good gained in the comparison, outweighed the bad and also outdid the good in the perfect world, therefore making a world with some bad in it the “Best Possible World”.

 

Possible objections to this may be as follows:

  1. The Extent/persistence of suffering is too great to explain this way.
  2. Is it fair to make some people suffer for the greater good?
  3. Aren’t there any less drastic ways of making us appreciative?

Another solution connected to this reasoning is the issue of Free Will. Free Will is an offshoot of Leibniz’s “Best Possible World” theory. It states:

  1. Much of evil is a result of human’s misuse/abuse of Free Will.
  2. Free Will is necessary for the greater good (or the “Best Possible World”).

The most common objection to this is:

  1. Why didn’t God just make us good and free?

But when you think about it, would this really make us free? Is ignorance of evil really freedom from it? This is a question you’ll have to answer for yourself.

 

~~~

 

The next argument you seem to bring up is what is called the “First Cause/Mover” argument. It states that:

  1. There are causes/movers in the world.
  2. Nothing can cause/move itself.
  3. The chain of causes/movers cannot go back indefinitely.
  4. Therefore, there must be a first cause/mover, and this is “God”.

Objections to this are as follows:

  1. Number 3 above is false – there is no problem with infinite chains into the past.
  2. Who caused “God”?

The second one is a very popular argument that is brought up a lot when you start on this train of thought. If  “God” caused the Big Bang and the Big Bang created the universe, then who is to say we cant just simplify the matter by removing “God” entirely. It is what most scientists would consider a violation of Occam’s Razor; the simplest theory is the most correct.

 

Many people base their arguments mainly on this assumption. I myself think that the “First Cause” Argument is a poor one, but just because you can disprove one argument does not mean that you have disproved the existence of God.

 

A good explanation dealing with objection #1 is called “Hilbert’s Hotel” and it deals with infinities. It’s a very interesting subject, and I know for a fact you can find it on the web if you look, so I’m not going to go into any detail here, I’m just going to refer you to it.

 

~~~

Some arguments you missed that I find relative to the proof of God are as follows:

 

Anselm’s “Ontological Argument” is one that is considered by philosophers to be a priori, meaning it is based on reason only and needs no outside evidence (unlike a posteriori which is based on facts about the world). It is as follows:

  1. I have in my understanding an idea of “God”.
  2. By definition, “God” is “that then which a greater cannot be thought”.
  3. Something is greater if it exists in reality than if it exists only in the understanding.
  4. Hence, if “God” existed only in the understanding, then “that then which a greater cannot be thought” would be “that then which a greater can be thought”.
  5. Since this is impossible, “God” exists in reality.

Rene Descartes’ take on this is similar, but with minor differences:

  1. “God” is defined as the “being with every perfection”.
  2. Existence is perfection.
  3. Therefore, “God” exists.

The terms “great” and “perfect” are relative. I’m not even going to get into my arguments against this one, because I get a bit angsty, but I know I’ve at least posted some of it on my blog if you want to search for it.

 

The argument of “Gradation” states the following:

  1. There is gradation in things (better/worse, more or less noble, etc...)
  2. Such comparisons presuppose a best, most noble, etc...
  3. This standard is “God”.

Objections:

  1. There is an assumed moral absolutionism – what is moral is relative. (What can I say, I’m a fan of relativism ^_^)
  2. Why not make the standard perfectly evil? Why good instead?

There are also some good debates on belief and faith (kind of the half-way ground between arguments against God and arguments for God), which I find interesting, though I won’t state them here, as this is already a very lengthy post. If you want some good reading too, I suggest David Hume’s “Why I am not a Christian”. It’s not a bashing of the faith, its just some observations and arguments about the term “Christian” and the people who call themselves “Christians”. He also brings up some of these arguments in his speech, and also how religion is based on fear. I found it interesting when I read it.

 

My disclaimer here is that I don’t necessarily believe in any of the above arguments, I just wanted to give them to you so you could use them in review of you paper if you’d like. I’m open to argue any of them, but I was just warning anyone who wanted to argue that there might be nothing to argue if I agree! ^_^

 
   

 


 
 
dragoneyes on
Re: Random Philosophical information...
Wow. Nice comeback

Actually... I've been thinking about "how everything started". After staring at the roof of my bedroom (which has many wood bars), I thought many different theories. It all started when I read the nickname of a friend from Australia, who is like a brother to me. It said "Which comes first? The egg or the chicken?". An old question that some people still do. It hit my head then, that the last one could have been the first one. What if in the far future, something causes the everything and the nothing to return to zero? To "begin" everything again? An incredible power that makes "time" travel back and bring us to existence? What if that power is what caused the Big Bang? I got that theory while I was walking on the street (to tell the truth, I got lost thinking about it). Then, my mind was clear and a simple voice could be heard. It said "What if then... we have always been here...? We always and never been walking on this street...? We have already seen those persons walking on the street... that car... those trees... even the same sky... maybe it never really came to an end... maybe it hasn't even started! But then... does this mean that life has never existed...? But what are we then? Have we always existed then...? Has existance ever existed...? That would explain why some stuff seems to come back to our minds... what people call dejavu... we have been doing the same all this time? Over and over again? But then... what happened...? Did existence really go back to zero? Or did it continue after it came back to zero...?". More questions were then formulated. For example, the theories of dimensions and alternate worlds. With every choise we take, do we really destroy a future? Or do we just create another future and start living in it, without changing the other one? Honestly, I get really dizzy after staring at the roof of my bedroom. So many posibilities... so many paths that we haven't walked and so many other choises that still remain in our future... who knows what we might have to chose in the future? And who knows? Maybe I'm all wrong. Maybe there is a "God" who caused the explosion that created things in the future. Maybe there was never such thing. Maybe it never existed? Maybe... my brain is dry already? And maybe, just maybe, I should stop writing before I get my hands burned. Ouch.

 Anyways... I'll just try to walk a path. Let's just hope I don't take another wrong step or I'll end up under a bridge... again.

EspritsAura on
Re: Random Philosophical information...
Yep, it's all very interesting to ponder, especially if you get bored. ^_^
dragoneyes on
Re: Random Philosophical information...
Yeah, well... I get really bored by jsut sitting in front of a computer 25/8 just chatting, sleeping (the computer is by the bed), eating (I bring food to my bed ), listening to music and playing video games... Oh, and writing. Gotta love it.

 Lalala. I'm gonna update my blog now

elbeaner on
Re: Random Philosophical information...
i could go on like you and explain my own poderings on the big questions, but i have done that soo much before, that im done for now. maybe a later post?
dragoneyes on
Re: Random Philosophical information...
Well, whenever you want to, I'll be waiting to read 'em

elbeaner on
Re: Random Philosophical information...
*gasp* wow, just wow. i love it, i love it all. thank you, wow. i think however you should post one on how you really feel on the subject, i respect you intelligence and wit quite frankly and wouldent mind hearing what you believe.
EspritsAura on
Re: Random Philosophical information...
I just thought you might like some hardcore background in case you wanted to add it into your paper. Seeing as most of these arguments have been around for centuries, someone will have a hard time completely upending them.

I have a paper on issues bordering this that is due this Monday. Perhaps I'll put it up when I'm done if I feel it's worthy.  It would be a place to begin, even though in my papers I tend to choose a side and argue it to it's fullest (so it's not necessarily all my beliefs, just arguments). But it would be a start if you really wanted to creep into my mind and glance at the opinions I harbor there.

I hope you found these useful! ^_^

~Kira~

otacon120 on
Re: Random Philosophical information...
Hm... maybe you'll start getting more recognition with this one.... you'd definitely deserve it.

I haven't read all of the entry, as it is 1:30 in the AM here, and I'm crazy tired. but, I'll most likely read it later. I'll DEFINITELY read it before the weekend is out.
EspritsAura on
Re: Random Philosophical information...
Lol, this really isn't anything more than organized facts, so in a way, the only credit deserved goes to those who taught it to me. Elbeaner  wants me to actually state my opinion on these issues but it would take a godawful long time if I did it as well as I should so I'm hesitant. Perhaps, when I have some more time I will. I have a paper on an issue such as this due this monday, perhaps I'll post it up when I'm done? ^_^

Thanks! ^_^


 
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